glad that you enjoyed Grendel so much, it is indeed a book that provokes a change of perspective on the subject of Beowulf which inturn in the most awesome way casts misfored shadows on cave walls that subverts the esotiric context and the language of the poem and in a larger context of the hero myth through its retelling and gives the reader a great transformative experience.
It certainly does. It is one of those rare books that actually alters your perception of its “parent work”, the world, or even yourself. There are very few of these. A couple of widely different examples are (less seriously) that the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen has altered history and now Hyde Park did get it’s name that way and the story that lead to what I like to think of as my “personal apotheosis” on the one hand and my atheism on the other. That one is tattoed in representation on my arm. Oh, yes, it was written by Cy, but I cannot say more as I am still (re)drawing it.
norsefire1 wrote:
although i am sure that can not be used as valid excuse for being tardy for work.
Better to be late through art than come in on time too hung over to do any work for hours I feel. Not that I have seen any people at my work do that, oh no. That really annoys me.
I’m glad you brought up the swords. Normally I would agree that swords are very much the expression of the Will / narrative foil of the hero. In Beowulf though swords (human made swords at least) never seem to do him much good. Hrunting and Naegling both break and fail him. I have always found this strange in the context of other hero myths. What do you think it is saying?
You raise an intriguing point about Unferth as bestower of arms/knowledge etc. I have always thought that Beowulf was “missing a Merlin”. I don’t think I can really go along with granting Unferth that status though. I have always read the part about the bestowal of Hrunting as his acceptance that he is a “but a man” and undeserving of a hero’s sword. I never liked him though, so that doesn’t help The thing about Unferth that is probably worth thinking about more deeply (although he is not really in the poem enough to do so) is that he is “Kinslayer”. Of course being a kinslayer is what produced the Mark of Cain in the first place. My mind circles around this, but cannot quite settle on something I am personally happy with. I am not comfortable with going as far as identifying Unferth and Grendel, or with the idea that Grendel is some sort of “just deserts”, as a bearer of the mark of cain, for a clan that has not punished kinslaying – that is a bit too Christian. I like what they did with Unferth in the film – but probably because it reinforced what I already thought about him!
I like your idea about the purpose of the poem perhaps being an attempt to deliberately bring about a synthesis of new ways and old. I wonder what 3000 lines of text from our time will still be fruit for discussion like this in more than 1000 years?
Let me know if you have more thoughts about the “making of rash covenants” idea. That sounds a fertile area for more exploration.
I always felt a bit sorry for Cain…maybe that says more about me than it should
Have you read Robert Alter’s annotated translations of the Books of Moses? There is some nasty stuff in there about all the “consuming” imagery that has been lost / sanitised in other versions of the bible.
Also the other night we rented the 2005 Beowulf with Gerard Butler. Have you seen it? Lots of reviews said it used the Gardner Grendel as source material (I can kind of see it, but only very loosely). I didn't really like it at all as a Beowulf film. As a different "troll story" then it was ok. The landscapes were amazing though. _________________
yes the subject of "landmark" books is very intresting. i was once told that if you read good stuff you will "produce" intresting thought provoking work, i think there is a little truth to that maxim. there have been a few books that have made a metamorphosis within my thinking, i would not go as far as to say that i have had any kind of "personal apotheosis" via a book,(save for the time i first read "god is dead and you have killed him") for me that has been due to the kingdom of the experintial.
it is indeed strange that the swords within beowulf never seem to be that useful, be they Human swords or magic swords, although this is not the only time within northen myth swords fail man, in the Arthurian legend king pellinore breaks the sword in the stone in two. i think what this would mean to a dark age audience a display the heroes opponents awesome martial skill that it will take the heroes introspective will to best his foe not by a sword, magic or otherwise.
i think there is indeed evidance to suggest that unferth is indeed a provides a Merlin archetype.in lines 1165 - 1168 of the poem he is called, bard or wiseman depending on the translation.
with unferth i think you are right in the bestowal of hurnting as his acceptance that he is "but a man" although by doing so it is though unferth's revalation that he is "but a man" and the act of unferth bestowing hurnting on to beowulf which in turn is a revalation unto beowulf that he gains the esoteric knowledge that he is ubermensch. the point that you bring up about unferth being a kinslayer himself and the relationship between the mark on cain, i think with this what is important to keep in the (dark age) mind is that unferth is a man and can be forgiven by christ due to the new covenant made at the cross, where as grendel is the offspring of the kin of cain and due to the rash covenant that cain made grendal is forsaken. i know this all sounds very christian but the more i think about the poem in its context the more i think this is one of the most imperative points the poem. yeah unferth rules in the latest film, infact i think he holds it up, but i would say that being a big unferth fan
i do hope that in each retelling and new translations of beowulf it does still provide fruit for discussion like this for much more then a 1000 years and keep the barbarian alive in us all.
as for the idea of the makeing of rash covenants, i am finding a patten in lots of the old world myths, what this all means i am not to sure, but i think there is something in it
yeah i always feel that God is moveing the goal posts in the Torah, but the person i really feel soz for is lilith.
i have indeed read Alters annotated translations of the book of moses very intresting stuff indeed. i think the idea of "consuming" is indeed a large theme within both testaments and feeds in to lots of points that has been lost in time, and is something that is put over quite strongly in the dark ages and later through to Dante.
its strange you bring up the 2005 Beowulf and grendal, i have indeed seen it infact i had it imported about a year ago, and i keep on meaning to ask if you and cy had seen it and if you had what you thought of it. i must say i really do like it, a shame that you did not. why i like it is due to that i see the movie as a commentary on the poem itself. i to have read that grendel was used as a source, which i think again the point of the movie is as a commentary. the landscapes where awesome.what did you think of the trolls
yeah - actually I had been thinking about the breaking of the sword from the stone when I was writing that last post - I must have got distracted and forgotten to mention it.
I see a connection between Grendel's mother and the Lady of the Lake - this is what I was thinking of, among other things, when I was talking about the female as bestower of arms before.
When I get home I will have another look at those lines about Unferth. Maybe his role as a wiseman is why he was vilified in a poem that, while it celebrates the "noble pagan", is, after all from a Christian time.
Poor Grendel. No Zombie god blood for him then Surely he should have been able to repent in the same way that it was considered possible for the dogheads to do so? Poor Lilith as well! I would so rather be a Shield Maiden than a peaceweaver! Along those lines what did you think of Eowyn in the film of LOTR.
I am enjoying the idea that we both liked the film version of Unferth - but you because you like him, and I because I dislike him, from the poem
I wonder how similar our book shelves look?
IN the 2005 Grendel I liked the trolls as trolls, but they were not Grendel for me. Also the loss of Grendel's mother was a big shame for me. The witch was an interesting addition, and a replacement in some ways, I guess, and the idea of Grendel as the father - but this really made me want to know the story of his child. I liked the drunken Hrothgar, especially as he disintegrates at the end. Stellan Skarrsgaard is always great though. In this version of course the humans are directly to blame for Grendels' actions - and the portrayal of human arrogance vs "nature" was an interesting spin. I think I found that Beowulf's sensibilities and revelations are too modern, though. He certainly underwent a voyage of discovery, possibly a harder one than that of origianl poem, but I want my dark age legends more viseceral!
We are thinking of maybe going to Iceland this year, so maybe we will see some trolls of our own!
Have you seen the version with Christopher Lambert? I haven't but I may track it down. _________________
i like the connection between Grendels mother and the lady in the lake, espacially if one to follow to follow some versions of the myth which ponder on who the lady is and that they share attributes with other maid at arms in myth, such as Thetis mother to the mighty dyonisan hero Achilles coupled with the suggestion that the lady in the lakes origins are pagan. yeah i can go with that idea.
i think with Unferth, i like to think of him more as bard then vilified wiseman and i think that this bard has the choice to admit that he is "but a man" and takes time to celebrate will the overman as must the audience/reader of the poem must pay homage to beowulf.
No zombie god blood for grendal no, none for grendel whatsoever, now in there, there is a huge conversation to be had about myth and ritual, about the blood of Christ, the spilling Blood by the forsaken Cain. and the grail... and as for the dogheads, you just had to bring up the dogheads in the Talmud for me any talk about Dogs within the bible can not have any kind of literal meaning, which i know sounds mad i know being as the Talmud is a book rabbinic musings on ethics and law, which are lets face it quite literal things but i feel in the books context dogs when used are clearly used as a allegory.
as for what i think Eowyn, first off i thought that Miranda otto was ace, she walked right out the book in the page, liked her a lot. thought what they did with her in the extended movies was a much better job then in the movie house, and i thought she had some awesome bits with the lost heir of Gondor and grima i felt that in the film they kind of made her much more of shield Maiden then the book, where she is a anachronism of an edwardian tomboy. although giving it a secound thought i do feel in the film they mad her a bit of a silly now and then. what did you think of what they did to the spirited but oh so alone Eowyn
i imagine that our book shelves are very much like parallel universes, alike but not.
i thought that the witch was an intresting idea to, i thought that the trolls were very good, although i did feel at times they did belong to a bbc kids drama about misunderstood trolls. Horthgar ruled and i thought that the talk between him and the celtic christian was awesome, skarrsgard is one of my fav actors, the only good thing in the lateist king arthur as the saxon warlord. yes the war between human arrogance vs nature was a cool.i dont recall beowulfs sensibilities and revelations to mordern, with that said has been a while since ive seen it. something to look out for on the next viewing.
i have indeed seen the christopher lambert version although to quote a fast show character "i was very, very drunk" a few years ago, so i dont recall much i must see it again at somepoint, like your self i may get a copy. i think its about 5 english pounds last time i looked. as a foot note to this i know xena delt with the beowulf story and also the ring cycle as well.
Although they are more Celtic than AS or Norse there are quite a few watery war /weapons women around. Of course there are also plenty of celtic versions of the "sleep with the apparent hag for the sake of knowledge and she then turns out to have been a beautiful woman all along" - interesting in the light of Grendel's mother in the recent film, no? Yeah, the Lady in The Lake has definite pagan heritage, I think.
This bring me to another thought, though. How much do artists of any time or type consciouslyy follow archetypal patterns (such as the heores journey), or decide to use certain devices in their work, and how many do it unconsciously just as a part of being a human story teller? On the other hand how many of the patterns we see are brought to a story from the outside? I will see a myth of the wasteland in anything given the slightest glimmer of a chance
I had a look at the lines about Unferth. What a fascinating puzzle. He appears in the story so briefly,yet his influence in the story somehow is much greater. It is surprising when you actually go back and find the handful of lines where he is actually "on camera" so to speak.
What is it about him that does this? Is it because he is more "human" than the other characters of kings and heroes and monsters? Is this kind of jealousy and then reconiliation and almost worship an example of how we would react to someone like Beowulf? Maybe when Unferth gives him the Hrunting it is almost as it he is accepting Beowulf as proxy or champion and so letting us, the audeince, know that we are to do the same and so can, guiltless, take part vicariously in Beowulf's exploits.
Of course we know how much the Anglo-Saxons loved riddles and puns, and his name can equally be read as "witless" or "soul-less" or "Eloquent" or "great- souled". I had never made that connection before you mentioned it. Now I am exasperated that we know so little about him.
Although I did not have this in mind when I asked your thoughts on Eowyn yesterday these thoughts about Unferth promted me to think about Grima and Theoden. I have an idea for an alternate reading of him - which I very much doubt is valid, but see what you think. If Unferth is a counseller or "speaker" and also a kinslayer do you think he could be read as more allied with Grendel - whispering to Hrothgar that he is a weak old man and he is better to leave Heorot shut up? When Beowulf turns up he is understandably put out, not only is he put to shame as a man, but his counsel will be shown as lies or weakness (un-wit). However in the end he realises his error and is reconciled with Beowulf and the Hall and redeemed? Or maybe if he is a bard he is perturbed to find a legend he has sung tales of striding up to his front door!
In the film of LOTR I thought that Eowyn, like Faramir, was made more believable as a character. As you said she was kind of a cartoon tomboy (although Tolkien's women are all somewhat "unreal"), and Faramir was kind of an idelaised boyscout in the book. And they end up together as well. I particularly liked her scenes with Grima, and the shot of her alone outside Meduseld with the haunting music as the banners blow in the wind. I wanted a bit more valkyrie though. More Brynhilde... but then maybe if they had done that then she would not have been able to seem fragile and alone as well. I do feel a bit sorry for Faramir though - he may not ever know it but she "settles" for him when she cannot get Aragorn.
oooh - the grail... that is one of my favourite things...if we get started on that and blood rituals then this thread will get longer than that Tony Stark one and there will only be the two of us on it! I may have lots to say about Beowulf but the Arthurian cycles are my "specialist subject"!
While I am thinking about the Arthurian stuff - yes Stellan Skarsgaard was the only good thing in what I thought was an absolute abortion of a film! How they could make a film on that subject and it be boring defies me. How they could make it and be boring to me opens a rift in reality! *looks back on Excalibur with dewy eyes*. OK - it was silly, but in a great, great way... and I was a young teenager when I first saw it so that excuses my nostalgia!
I love dogheads. Best of all I like the story that st Christopher was one and I agree - dogs in the bible are more than dogs in the bible if you see what I mean - and I think you do.
I liked Xena, but I never followed it - if it was on the tv when I turned it on I would watch it. I don;t think I saw hardly any of the later series which I am told got quite dark. I completely missed any episodes to do with Beowulf or the Ring though. I wonder if I can find them ...
Now I am off to see if I can add that other Beowulf to my rental list... _________________
i think that is a very intresting question that you bring to the table there about "artists" useing archetypal patterns or useing cultural devices with that said i think it is safe to say no story teller worth his or worth construct work which is unconscious, unless that story teller is melvyn peake. haveing said that i do agree that patterns that are placed within the great metanarratives from the outside be it if your a dark age/celtic bard or T S Elliot, glad i am not the only person who see's the wasteland in most any myth i read
Unferth is in did an fascinating puzzle, i think what makes this so is that as you rightly say he is maybe the "most human" maybe more human then human. although i think it goes to far to suggest that Unferth is takeing part vicariously in beowulfs toil. but i am happy that he maybe some kind of everyman.
i think also your point about the As loveing riddles and puns with the ambiguous nature of the kinslayer, i would like to think that this is a two part concept at work here. it is clear that unferth is a man of contrasts, i think it is device of the bard/author of the poem to show unferths accepting of beowulf as a huge act of being humble. also i would like to think that the fact that Unferth's name is an ambiguous one leads the reader to muse that he is maybe some form of bard/wiseman. i do ponder on unferths part in the poem haveing been cut down over time when the poem went from being told to being put down with the pen.
i must admit when you asked me about what my thoughts on Eowyn i did think about the poor mans Unferth in Grima in all of this. i dont think that unferth can ever be read as a collaborator with Grendel, knowingly or not. i think unferth is (unlike grima) is trying to do the best for his king, i dont think his counsel is lies, weak maybe but not lies.
i could not agree more with what you have to say about Faramir in the book.yes eowyn at the gates of Meduseld with the flag and that score, i think i hear that bit of music just about every day...awesome. yes it would of been cool to see more of the valkyrie i did see early art that in the two towers (movie) that she did get in there at the battle of helms deep. i also feel a bit sorry for faramir.but not so much does also amuse me as well, kind of got this feeing Tolkien got himself in a hole he didnt quite know how to write himself out of.
yes i concour that if we start talking about the grail it would be one large subject. i would as well consider arthuriana as being my "specialist subject".
on the arthurian stuff, yes latest king movie could only be what you named it. an abourtion. excalibur is awesome, best seen when at 3 years old or about 14...magic the Merlin rules.
i am sure you have read it but have you read "warriors of the wasteland : a quest for the pagan sacrificial cult behind the Grail legends" by john grigsby.
what is is the arthurian cycle that you rate above others
i really enjoy xena, i am thinking of collecting it again the later series is where the gold is at. if this helps at all the episodes that deal with beowulf and the ring cycle are
season 6
7 : the rheingold
8 : the ring
9 : return of the valkyrie
I found the expansion of Unferth's character in Grendel very poignant. It would be fascinating if someone gave him the "grendel treatment" and wrote the story from his point of view. In fact, I think what we need is like a whole multi-media cycle of the poem where you can access the events from the points of view of all the characters, flip between them, try out "what ifs" - all sorts of things like that. It would be awesome.
I really wished that when they did the merchandise for the LOTR film that they were going to make the Meduseld banners - no such luck. Tatty looking jewelery (although I thought Arwen's necklace looked cheap in the film anyway), but no banners
Yes, the Grail "no one who sets out on the quest remains unchanged" isn't it? There must be a comic or movie somewhere we can start a thread about in the pretence of talking about it and then swerve it off to old myth cycles Having said that have you read any of the Beowulf comics that have been done over the years, and if so have you found any good ones? I don't have the adpatation of the latest film, but no others I have read have really done it for me. Perhaps it need P Craig Russell? I wonder if he does requests?
I couldn't possibly tell you what my favourite of the Arthurian cycles is. IN general I prefer the older stuff with the strong other-worldy connections rather than the "historical" versions - Arthur as myth is more important to me than Arthur as man. My favourite character has to be Gawain and I bear a grudge against Chretian de Troyes for beginning the downfall of Gawain at the expense of Lancelot - who generally gets on my nerves a bit - although the sword bridge is a very good story. I know the two characters fulfil different roles, but still...
As you might imagine I especially love the Merlin centered materials, particularly the older poetry that makes him something much wilder.
Of course you can't think about Merlin without The Once and Future King popping into your head. I think of the John Gardner Grendal in the same sort of space in my head as an expansion of the story.I do hate the Disney version (which should not be a surprise given they ruin just about every good story they get their hands on!). I also hate that nearly everyone thinks Excalibur is the sword in the stone - grrr. My - I am very hate filled this afternoon!
I remember reading Mary Stewart's Crystal cave sequence as well when I was about 12 or 13 and we were on holiday in Wales - that was brilliant. See - now all my hatred is gone.
Yes, I've read warriors of the wasteland. It must be at my parents as I can't find it with my other Arthur books having had a bit of a rummage. I must remember to pick it up when I am next there. Celts and their head cults, hey?
I take you have read the Slaine / Arthurian crossover (is it Treasures of Britain,? I can't check my bookshelves from here). I really liked the Dermot Power art. His Arthur is exactly as I imagined him to be.
Oh no - now a whole train of thought has started about the Green Knight and Grendel and I am at work so can't get into it...but the "monster at the feast" is something that is common to many things. Gawain and the Green Knight is one of my favourite ever things.
I really want them to do Gawain and the Green Knight in the same technology as Beowulf. But who to play Gawain...I will have to have a think.
Have you seen the film that has Sean Connery as the Green Knight? I think it might even be Prince Valiant? Quite an old film.
I will try and track down those Xena episodes
So, that was quite a long ramble taking in lots of different things! _________________
when i think of Unferth in Grendel (and cos of that book in beowulf as a whole) i think there is a synchronicity at work. i think your idea of someone telling Unferths tale would be supergood. i like the idea of some kind of metanarrative with Beowulf. sounds well subversive, in a good way. although i am not quite sure i want to see wealthow's turn of events. which may turn out a little like kichen sink realism
there are indeed banners of the rohan out there if you are after one, 4 verying ones i think , from the movie. with the jewelery i just can not get over why people want to buy the master ring to put wear a portent of evil. mad.
i have read one or two "beowulf" comics over the years, the last one that i got was the film adpatation. i think your right, that they never ever kind of get it right, i think P craig russell could be the man to make it work. i hope he does do requests cos i have a list...
i think your right arthur as the myth is so much more important then arthur the man. other then the Merlin i think my fav character is percival, i think the tale in the Mabinogion "peredur son of Efrawg" is awesome. which is strange cos Chretian de Troyes did a "job" on percival as well, yeah i am not a fan of Lancelot as well.
the older poems of the Merlin are fantastic. the whole mad man in the woods vibe. great.
i am sure you have all ready, but as the Grendal Book and the idea of verying protaganists is being disscussed have you read "the Mists of Avalon" by the Marion Zimmer Bradly it is told from the point of view of Morgan le Fay. (to which there is a t.v movie also, but only put out in the usa)
yes you cant think of the merlin without thinking of the once and future king. yes the once and future king, a silly and childish over simple saga on how man should rule itself. and people have got problems with C.S lewis dont get me started on white. what makes me sick about the saga is when civil law takes over trail by combat, what a daft insidious pacification of the myth and the outlook of the dark age's. yes the Disney version is poor, as was there take on the prydain chronicles. i am feeling that hate
although i think it is useful to place the once and future king as the same kind of book as grendal.
Stewarts Crystal cave saga is awesome, i think this was one of the first books that i read that placed the myth out of the romance and well into the dark ages. did you ever see the BBC's take on these books i had the VHS as i child, they where seen to death. i wonder if its out on DVD will have to have a look.
yes the Arthur in the Slaine/Arthurain crossover is quite good.
yes the theme of "monster at the feast" is indeed common, you have me pondering on much about such things now. i would like to hear what you have to say about sir Gawain and green knight.
i recall the first time i read Sir Gwain and the Green knight i was sat on Glastonbury Tor on a late spring afternoon, with sun out within the context that on that Morning i had been hearing lectures on the importance of the Tor and the Finding of the Grail.
strange that you say you would like to see Gwain and the Green knight in the same tec as Beowulf cos when i met neil Gaiman he said that "green knight" would be the tale he would want to retell (i may of posted this before )
i have indeed seen "Sword of the valiant : the legend of of sir Gwain and the green knight" i think the last time i did i was about 6 so i will have to hunt that out on dvd.
Maybe it could be that Wealtheow is an arch political manipulator – the spider at the centre of a web of intrigue and interclan destinies …nah, prob’ly not now I think of it…
Really – banners of Rohan? I never found any. I will have another look. As far as wall hangings go, though, I am about to get a beauty. If you remember when we met in Canterbury there was a girl with us with long dark hair. She does seriously cool quilting (discard anything you have ever though about quilts and think wall hanging or textile art) and I she is selling one of her original pieces to me. We are talking about the possibility of doing a “Beowulf interlace” thing together – me to draw it and her to make it using materials and fabrics that would have been available at the time.
As for wearing the one ring. My problem with it is what is that supposed to say about the person wearing it? I think it is something like..."yeah, I might just look like nobody, but really I am Sauron the mighty and I could ....yeah...if I wanted..." Sad, very sad, and so against the spirit of the very book they are supposed to like...sigh.
Let’s kidnap P Craig Russell and make him draw mythic adaptations for us. I mean he would be kind of a slave, but it is not like we would make him live in a dungeon or anything…he would have a nice life…y’know, for a slave…
Wow yeah – the Mabinogion another great classic. Once, late at night (on Channel 4 I think) I stumbled across what seemed to be an animated version of it, linked to some children in the “real world” shot on film. It had already started, though, and I fell asleep before the end so it remains a mystery. Oooh, ooh – after they have done Gawain as mo-cap they could do the whole Mabinogion…in fact I can see needing an army of slaves!
[quote=”norsefire1”]the older poems of the Merlin are fantastic. the whole mad man in the woods vibe. great. [/quote]
Riding on a stag – yay!
Actually I am rewatching the Box of Delights at the moment (the old BBC series from the mid eighties). Even then I thought it was not as good as the book, but even now the nightmare sequence is pretty scary. Brrr. Anyway – I thought of it as it has a Herne sequence that has a much friendlier version of the Taliesin transformation through the animals story and the stags are lovely. In fact there was a real trend for “romantic pagan” childrens’ books around the 70s to mid eighties, wasn’t there? Think Alan Garner, Susan Cooper etc. Now we have Harry Potter *spit*
You know I have never read The Mists of Avalon. We have do have a copy that I think Cy inherited from somewhere, and based on how much I liked Grendel I will read it if you recommend it. I think I was always put off by how it is described as a “feminist interpretation” which I took as a by word for “dull and worthy” – and partly by some people I knew who always went on about it and they were very much “part of the sisterhood” – which I always react against.
I didn’t ever see a TV adaptation of the Crystal Cave books. Did you find if it was out on DVD?
Cy has what I think is a good theory about why it can be so hard to put myth / fantasy on film which is to do with the specifics of film (ie this is real person playing a part) vs the archetypal nature of the characters. Right now I can’t remember the word that means the opposite of archetype – which would have made my sentence neater! So basically if you draw or animate or describe a character it is kind of a “creature of art” still “outside time and specifics” but on film you are “fixing” it somehow and in pinning it down to a real person it loses the “potential” inherent in an archetype. Live drama can work of course as it is much more representational you have much more of a sense of the actor “wearing the mask” or “taking on the role” than you do in film (for the most part) where an actor “is” the character rather than “temporarily representing the character”. Did any of that make sense? If you meet Cy again you will have to ask him as he expresses it much better than that!
Oooh – I am jealous. That is such a great way to have first experienced Gawain and the Green Knight. There is so much to say about it I don’t know where to start, and this post is already really long. I will say though that if Beowulf is an exploration of tension between the 2 worlds / ways then Gawain and The Green Knight really “turns it up to 11”. To sum up I think it is (mainly) about the fact that humans cannot escape nature and they should not try to set themselves above it. Like Beowulf I think the poet still has a foot in the “old ways” and plays with the contrasts fantastically although he was almost undoubtedly a Christian of some stripe - especially if he also wrote the other poems in the same codex. Those northern English Christians still had quite a lot of pagan in their hearts, if not their minds, though! In this light I find the choice of Gawain as hero interesting as there is definitely some sort of god creature striding behind him.
We must talk about this some more. And then we can stitch together Beowulf, Siegfreid and Arthur…like a kind of mythological 7 steps to Kevin Bacon
I bought Sword of The Valiant from whatever for £4! _________________
i dont see wealtheow as an arch political manipulator dealing with intrigue. although thinking off the top of me head i think see has some kind of huger for power and i think this works within the context of her gender role.
i hope that the search for the banners of the horse lords yields results. yes i do recall the person that you mentioned in your last post. the wall hanging seems to be all very exciteing, what subject matter or motif does the work that you are buying have the idea of producing a work useing your idea of the "beowulf interlace" design sounds very, very cool and creating a work utilizing the fabrics and materials of the early middle ages sounds a stroke of excellence. although it sounds like a huge task.
there seems to be a lot truth in what you said about people wearing the ring of power. a mass market seems to miss the point. i dont think people understand that there diluting the very imprearative of the mythic cycle.
yeah the plan for more mythic adapations for us sounds like a good one although what to put to paper first
yeah, that animated version of the Mabinogion sounds very cool,it does ring a bell, will have to look it up. C4 seem to excel in puting greatness on at stupid o' clock, some of my most fav movies i discovered at 3am on C4. oh tristan and isolde needs to be added to the Mo-Cap list, i think there should be some kind of CGI sweatshop going on
yes the box of delights, yes not as good as the book, but still badass. yes herne in it rules
"herne the hunter, keep your lions away from my unicorns "
yes i think your right about the PG version of the Taliesin going on in the show. yeah i think that that "romantic pagan" going on with books and i think t.v at the time had a massive impact on fantasy as a whole. i think that Robin of sherwood and what it had to say created a profound effect on my thinking (if i am lucky on sunday i hope to meet nasir... sorry i mean actor mark ryan at a con over the weekend ) but yeah so much good stuff going on at that time, been thinking for a while i should go back and re read the lot. strange you name that magic grange hill harry potter here cos if i know someone who is makeing the mistake of reading that rot i will always suggest a "romantic pagan" book after to take away the bad taste that there left with.
the Mists of Avalon is well worth the read. please dont be put off by it being a a "feminist interpetation" (which it is) but i have spent a fair while in study of the menagerie of idea's which "make up" feminist theory and the last words that i would use to place on the mists of avalon as "dull and worthy" like Grendal it is a tale that desires to be told from another point of view so that the reader can to gain that insight.
i did look up the BBC adaptation of merlin and the crystal cave and no luck as yet. although in looking i have found out about a movie named Merlin and the Dragons made in 1991.
i think that Cy has a real point about it being hard to put myth onto film. this is a subject that i am very intrested in. i think he has hit the nail on the head with the idea of live action movie. with live drama and its representatioal stylings i think that there is potential with the same problems, strange that this subject has come up cos i wil be going to see the Lord of the rings stage play soon, so i shall reserve judgment on that although i think with the drama cy is right. from this could one extrapolate that animation be it in 2d or 3d is the true way to bring myth to the screen
by christ there is indeed much to say on sir gawain and the green knight and i think that you are right about the tensions of the two worlds/ways being imperative to the work. iam not sure about what what you have to say about nature there but i think you are indeed right that the poet has a foot and maybe alittle more in the old ways and indeed plays with the contrasts that the middle ages brings. yes the monasticism of the north of england was always a strage turn of events in the middle ages.yes i think that gwain does have "something" behind him.
i will ponder on the idea of hasty covents in the context of Gwain... and beowulf.
that is a awesome price for the sword of the valiant.
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The thing about Unferth that is probably worth thinking about more deeply (although he is not really in the poem enough to do so) is that he is “Kinslayer”. Of course being a kinslayer is what produced the Mark of Cain in the first place. My mind circles around this, but cannot quite settle on something I am personally happy with. I am not comfortable with going as far as identifying Unferth and Grendel, or with the idea that Grendel is some sort of “just deserts”, as a bearer of the mark of cain, for a clan that has not punished kinslaying – that is a bit too Christian. I like what they did with Unferth in the film – but probably because it reinforced what I already thought about him!
Surely he should have been able to repent in the same way that it was considered possible for the dogheads to do so? Poor Lilith as well! I would so rather be a Shield Maiden than a peaceweaver! Along those lines what did you think of Eowyn in the film of LOTR.
and I agree - dogs in the bible are more than dogs in the bible if you see what I mean - and I think you do.
although what to put to paper first