This form costs me such a lot of money! Now I will have to look for those Magusson books as well.
I have ordered Grendel so should have that in a couple of days.
You have tempted me with the Children of Hurin, now. It was the grey, Finnish, dark age aspects that did it.
You are right about the compassion and sacrifice (I do like the concept of "stabbing readers with compasssion" ) but of course his christian faith was an important part of his life. Whether you should let your beliefs so colour your work is another question. In many ways LOTR is a kind of lament for a rustic middle class england that never existed. Some of its messages are a bit "off" now, but it was a product of its author and its times like everything else.
I would have also been at odds about the idea of compassion vs Will (as you may have gathered when there was the thread about what makes a hero some time back), but so long as you have a teacher who is open to debate and does not insist all his students have the same opinions as him then that would have been good. Different points of view enrich the argument I think. I have no idea if Tolkien was like that though.
What do you think of the idea that Beowulf makes use of the text based equivalent of Interlace design - as seen in lots of North European art?
I find it persuasive and have been thinking about creating a visual version of the different strands of the poem as some sort of mammoth interlaced / knotworked design that all flows together. It may be one of my great schemes that comes to nothing, though, as it is so potentially vast that I am likely to be paralysed as to how to start it! _________________
i hope that you get a lot out of Grendel, its a book that shines a light in darkist parts of the Trolls cave illuminating a little on the Complexity on that doomed creature.
as for the idea of the idea that Beowulf makes use of a text based equivalent of interlace design is an intresting idea. you see i have 2 verying thoughts on this subject one is as you say that it is indeed very persuasive, like lots of saga's from the Dark ages's (both pagan and christian, although christianity would of by in large been worshiped pargmaticlly after the fall of the roman empire) and other forms of art found in northen european there is indeed a great holistic approach.that refects the intracacy of nature's forms. but on the other hand there is no real evidance to the interlace design haveing any magical, religious or philosophical meaning, save for the one that "new age" wicca and the monks at lindisfarne gave it. (and with the lindisfarne monastic's it seems they where appying idears to the Celtic Knot, propaganda though a similar cultural motif ) so i dont know, i think that if the so called celtic knot is little more then a nice decoration then i may feel that it may inturn devalue Beowulf cos the last thing that beowulf is, is nothing more text based equivalent of decoration for the ear's. i do hope that this does not sound like i am hedging my bets here, its just that i think it would be wise to find out the real meaning of the "celtic" knot work and not let the "new age" taint its or beowulf's context.
I think that whatever the "meaning" of the interlace designs to the people of the time (and it could have been that they just found them attractive) that they are so deeply a part of that culture's visual expression it would be expected to find them elsewhere, as part of the Zeitgeist, so to speak.
So if it was that dark ages north europeans just found knotted, winding patterns harmonius and attractive it can tell us about their aesthetic prefereces for sure - whether we can realistically extrapolate from that up to magical, religious or pholisophical meaning will never be certain, as you say, although cultures do tend to produce psychological patterns.
We do know though that some of the writings on literature and composition of the time are very concerned with structure and use many words to do with weaving and pattern making in this context. Given the use of the the interlaces in things like the Lindisfarne gospels that they must have been considered in some way suitable appropriate. Perhpas it was an attempt at a pragmatic approach to marry what were still two quite separate cultures. Reading other Saxon / Norse translations of bible stories etc I do not think their understanding of Christianity was anything like the same as that in contempary Rome, and certainly nothing like the majority of Christians understand it today.
Whether poems like Beowulf are "decoration for the ears" is more of a discussion about "what is art" which is much trickier
I am really looking forward to reading Grendel now.
In many ways Grendel's mother is one of the most interesting characters in the poem - and I think probably the most difficult for the poet poised between the pagan and christian worlds - and based on what happened to other, better attested and trackable characters - the most twisted to fit a new role.
In many ways her "monstrous" aspects seem to be more about her not being a "peace weaver" and keeping in her proper place!
I would be interested in your take on what they did with her in the recent film. _________________
i agree that the the interlace design was indeed a deep part of the visual expression celtic/darkage culture and i like the idea of it being part of or a zeitgeist , i like that a lot. on the other hand i feel that on one level yes, as you say that the knoted patterns can tell us much of the cultures aesthetic prefereces but the interlace design has been a victim of the horror's of interpretation and speculation.
again with writeings of the time and there stucture of words to do with weaving and pattern makeing. and in the case of holy text's it may be indeed conserdered approiate which would in turn imply that the interlace design would have some kind of easly recognisable spiritual significance. i would like to propose that very much like (at the risk of orientalising the subject) the use of Mandala's in the east. such use of the interweaving device could be out there to establish a sense of sacred space, or an aid into a trance maybe. a device, a way into but not the point of the text. (e.g the Lindisfarne gospels)
Grendels mother is indeed one if not the most interesting characters in the poem. i agree that Gendels mother has also been the victim of so much speculation. one may even say she has been scarred by it. i would 100% agree with you that cos grendals mother is not forfilling her role she is cast out. her child slain and then beheaded postmortam, her home defiled all due to her not playing her part as hostess, madness.
as for what they did with grendals mother in the recent movie is i think very intresting, she is a complex paradox, part of me likes to think that she was put down on paper as a critical response to other translations. part of me also feels that with the recant film the writers have made her a vengeful valkyrie in part at least something seamus heaney points out although uses amazons rather then the valkyrie. at times she seems to be quite in keeping with the poem.(although in appearance she is never givein a decent description in the poem) the claws are there, she lives in a lake like place but then there is the shapeshifting and the seduction which is not like the poem. far from the hag. does it take away from the the power of the poem i dont think so, i recall that i did not have an issue with it when i viewed the movie for the first time.is it a cop out maybe. intrestingly in the novel of the movie (which is very good a rare thing in books of the movie) grendals mother is infact Nerthus the germainic fertility goddess.
there is a bigger question about grendels mother in the recant movie. cos if we take the two act stucture of the poem grendals mother becomes a footnote, just another trail for beowulf to slay, so in the scheme of things she may not be that important at all. so the inclusion of hag as the 2nd act says a lot about the traslation in its self.
I had wondered myself, before, if there was some Mandala-like purpose to the interlaces. I certainly find that it is very easy to get drawn into them. I guess we will never really know Even if they did some use like this I wonder how far apart the response they would provoke in a dark age person would be from a woman born in the late 20th century?
Casting grendel's mother explicitly as Nerthus kind of makes sense with what they did in the film script. I had not heard about that before. If I ever get the chance (and this is soooooo unlikely) I would really like the chance to talk with Neil Gaiman about how he approached the script, what translations he used etc.
When thinking about the structure about the structure of the poem I prefer the idea of a 3 act structure of large acts balanced around a small third "pivot" act - which is the grendel's mother story. Although it is somewhere inside / behind the actual text I think there is something transformative about the underwater encounter with the mother- I am still not entirely sure that I had decided what it is. It may be that I never will be - it could be that information is missing / changed/ not understood across the centuries. It could just be that this is the point he "becomes a man" if you take the view that the 2 halves of the poem show young Beowulf and old Beowulf and are all really just "trailers for his death" if you like. If I decide I finally am happy about what it is I will be sure and let you know
As to what they did in the film, when I first saw the screen shots and heard what was going to be done I had a reactionary fit. Then I thought that as bards / skalds / scops whatever had been telling versions for centuries then a new version was quite in the spirit of things - so long as the meaning wasn't significantly changed.
In the end when I saw it I quite liked what they had done. I thought that maybe the idea was that she was more modelled along the lines of the celtic "goddess of the land" - granting kingship, having the cup, discarding her lover when a new hero was needed etc. In light of that it is interesting to hear that they used Nerthus as a model.
Some people did complain about the "sexing up" of Grendel's mother, but I think that was ok. As you say we never get an actual physical description of her, and the fight in her cave below the mere (with all of its associations!) is presented in really quite sexualised language. I liked that it seems actually the promise of "being remebered in song" that is the temptation that does for Beowulf - and not the sexy woman or the gold (although the promo posters tried very hard to give that impression).
In the poem it is almost as if in fighting and defeating Grendel's mother Beowulf somehow gains some of her "monstrous" nature and power. I kind of see this in the dragon fight as well - they both perish but what survives in the barrow may be something that is a part of them both - and the whole poem itself gives something of an idea that what was considered great and heroic then may be seen as monstrous now.
She did contrast well with the other more passive "normal" women, but I think for a 21st century audience this would have the effect of making her more attractive, not more monstrous. I guess most of the stuff about the cup-bearing would have been lost on most people, too, but it was nice that it was there as a kind of nod for those who would appreciate it.
Although I love what they did with the dragon visually I didn't really like the idea that he was Beowulf's son. I have always liked the complex relationship with Beowulf and his monsters - especially the idea that he in some way "becomes the new dragon" under the barrow with his hoard of gold which is now useless to a nation doomed to extinction. This is to do with my conception of "heroes are monsters who fight on your side", though. I guess whether you can go along with this depends if you see some sort of apotheosis at the "second funeral" which I do.
You know, soon a mod will be over here to tell us this is a forum about comics and not dark age poetry!
I wonder if the film has brought new people to the poem? If I was an English teacher I would be all over it. _________________
when i met Neil Gaiman on the subject of retelling storys, the old myths, i think the rhetoric he put out there was very much pay homage to the source but seemed very confortable to fit in the demands of mordernism. which i think is very much i feel beowulfs (the movies) modus operandi.
as for the issue of the 3 act structure, i am quite happy with reading the poem in both stuructreal forms. i think that context is everything when it comes the issue of the 3 act structure and Grendals mother, i am quite happy to suffer a interpretation from the translation as this point in the poem from whatever epoch of time the translation is from. with that said when i do read it as a two act poem i will say that i do feel that grendals mother is far more then just a heroic feat he most overcome to prove his hero status. she is much more, some strange, dark and alien recollection of a time when "man" used to worship the Goddess...maybe, i really do like the idea of of Beowulf at this point in the poem going under some transformation, so that the reader can see the transfiguration of beowulf, the quest from from "man" to "superman" maybe. the contest against the tragic for the end of the act at least, won out by personal desire, mother nature defeated by Christ's wolf (or bear) by the will to power. but yes i like that idea of the transformative going on in that part of the poem and i do hope that you do get to some conclusion with that.
as for the matter of the dragon in the movie (which was awesome, the best dragon on film...ever, one can see that from just looking in the art book of the movie) i thought that the son thing after some thought worked well within the context of the film, i need to see the film again and give it some more thought but i do recall when seeing in the movie house my mind saying "what the hell is this all about". as for the idea of "becomeing the new dragon" i think it feeds in very well into idea's of the transformative which works well into the question "what is heroic and what is Monsterous". as it is for me there is no such war between what is heroic and what is monstrous. the celtic/dark age hero is beyond good and evil. i feel sigfried is a good example of this.(although sigfried drinking the dragons blood may show some evidence for the mixing of the hero and the monster)
ive never been told off before for talking about the poetry of the dark ages, oh well first time for everything i guess
i think it (the beowulf movie) has got people reading the poem and i do know that in the US there was a big drive in school when the film was put out for teens to get busy reading the poem.
ive never been told off before for talking about the poetry of the dark ages, oh well first time for everything i guess
You obviously move in better circles than me! Grendel arrived yesterday and I started reading it on the way to work this morning (liking it very much - thanks for the recommendation) and I brought it up with my colleagues and they were just not interested. If I had continued they would have told me off I am sure
I agree that there is not a war between the heroic and the monstrous, rather that they are the same thing but depending on your perspective is how you label it. Also I think that Chaos seems to be one of the biggest fears in northern literature, but the heroes are definitely "of chaos" in a big part. It is their refusal to be constrained by the "normal" social order that makes them into hereos in the first place.
Have more to say about transformation - glad you brought up Siegfried in this context - but I have to get on with work now!
How did you get to be chatting with Neil Gaiman about the subject of retelling stories? _________________
i agree that what one labels the monsterous and the heroic and indeed it is the matter of perspective that draws a line between the two. although i feel that the presbyterian in me would like to buck against that and say that though toil and indeed the fundermental choice's of the hero is then transfigerd into the divine, reconciles the politics of the soul as it where. to become a true hero in the context of the nietzschean.
the theme of chaos, and the heroic being "of chaos" is indeed very strong within Northen barbarian literiature. to me what is important about this complex aspect of the heroic within dark age saga is in part a matter of balance not dominace, the hero of chaos is indeed (for me) is an aestheic last stand of the pagan. embamatic expression, celebration of the authentic principles of individualism, the drinking of wine, ecstasy and intoxication and the greatness of the will to power against the ideas of civilzation vs. primal nature and the Christ god of rome. as you rightly said it is there choice not to be constrainad by the "normal" pre feudal system and to follow the path of (in abstract context of literature at least) Dionysus.
like to hear more on what you have to say about the subject of transformation.
i met neil Gaiman last year at a reading of stardust (just as the movie was coming out), Q and A and a book signing and the question i put to him was would he go on to retell any more of the great tales.
I was waiting to reply until I had finished Grendel. I can’t thank you enough for recommending it to me. It has instantly become one of my favourite books (something which does not happen very often). I was so involved in it that I missed my tube stop on the way to work one morning, and only just got out of the doors on time on another day.
Obviously I am preaching to the converted here, but the language was incredible. I loved the idea of “men gone mad on art” and the fact that Grendel can “scare them to glory”.
I have always thought that there was something hovering around the idea of Grendel as Beowulf’s shadow, and the book takes this in a really interesting direction.
Anyway – you were interested in my ideas about transformation so a quick round up.
I think it is possible to view the poem as a journey to the apotheosis of Beowulf, where he begins as a man, becomes a hero, then a king, and is finally transformed into a god (or “ancestor” in a semi-divine sense).
So, he arrives at Heorot as man, albeit as kind of a “high human” who has already defeated sea monsters and trolls but these are part of the world so although this is noteworthy he is still not accorded the respect of a “hero proper”.
In defeating Grendel he proves his worthiness to descend/ascend to the next level under the tutelage of the Dark Goddess in the form of Grendel’s mother. I think one of the key indications of this, although it is not much more than a line or so in this poem (which I attribute to Christianity never letting us have nice things), is that a man’s sword is not sufficient for his task and instead he is able to wield the ancient sword of the giants. Although there seem to only be hints and echoes threaded through the sexualised language of the fight scene there are plenty of other myths that use such a pattern of the Dark Goddess as a military tutor / bestower of arms. The ability or draw / wield the “sword of the father” or “the sword of the ancients” is also a recurrent symbol in myth.
As a hero he then travels back home and by his deeds (although we do not have much detail of them) is eventually acclaimed King. I capitalise it as the idea of Kingship embodies, I think, something “other”.
As Beowulf fought his “man shadow” in Grendel, which allowed him the chance to transform into a hero, he must in the end confront and embrace his “king shadow” in the form of the dragon which allows him to move to the next state of “God or Ancestor” and takes his place under the mountain. I am guessing from your interests that you are familiar with the Jungian archetypes so the easiest way to think of what I mean is in terms of the Syzygy here.
You could also think of the transformations as first by water and then by fire, which of course would have resonances for the Christian apocalyptic visions of baptism and rapture while still allowing the poet to use the ideas of heroic trials familiar from the pagan stories. “What has Ingeld to do with Christ?” indeed!
As with other aspects of the poem I feel that this theme is echoed for other characters / clans / societies at different levels to reflect and amplify this. I think it is often females who are the instruments of transformation as well. For example, Wealtheow as a peace weaver with her mead bowl is able to transfigure the thanes into “men” rather than just another kind of animal or monster – the chosen of God’s creation. In the fragments Hildeburgh attempts to transform family relationships, although she fails, Freawaru is to be used to unite kingdoms etc. To cap it all the whole society is in a state of transformation and flux (both at the time of the poem with the immanent doom of the Geats after Beowulf’s death, prophesised by a woman – and the poet from an England balanced between a pagan past and a Christian future.
I think there is also something in the fact that the thanes have not recognised Grendel for what he really is and so fight him (these thoughts have been amplified by the Grendel book) and so cannot unite with their shadows. I think this is shown by the fact that they continue to fight him with swords which have no effect, whereas Beowulf fights him barehanded (and probably bare bodied) and kind of embraces him in order to defeat him. Of course there are other analogues for this kind of thing in northern myths where the fight is almost taking place in an other world / dream that the combatants are drawn into – such as in the stories of Bodvar Bjarki and the Dream of Rhonabwy etc
Why I was glad that you brought up Siegfreid is that he has the very common mythic transformation of access to knowledge (in his case the language of birds) by consuming something, as well the “father’s sword” trope. Think of Gwion, Fionn, Connla’s well, Mimir’s pool etc. I am kind of surprised this is not in Beowulf, especially as a reflection of the idea that Grendel comes to the hall and consumes the thanes in a monstrous parody of the idea of hospitality to guests.
I also wonder if as well as the smoke from Beowulf’s pyre rising to heaven possibly signifying his ascension / acceptance to the halls of his fathers, it also has some message of redemption for Grendel as the last of Cain’s kin? It was probably not meant this way, and is just my 20th century mind finding patterns that were not intended for the audience of the time – but I wonder if there is some kind of typological function here where, if you accept that Beowulf and Grendel were united to make the “hero Beowulf”, then perhaps God is finally accepting the sacrifice of Cain that he previously rejected. The anglo saxon translations of the bible are much less squeamish in translation about God eating sacrifices. This has further resonace with the story of Cain and Abel I think if the theory of the root of Beowulf’s name coming from the corn deity Beow, rather than the Bee Wolf idea is correct. Just a thought for discussion that one, really, I have not decided.
So, by the time I got to the end of that it was quite long (again). One day I will be able to write quick notes about my thoughts! _________________
glad that you enjoyed Grendel so much, it is indeed a book that provokes a change of perspective on the subject of Beowulf which inturn in the most awesome way casts misfored shadows on cave walls that subverts the esotiric context and the language of the poem and in a larger context of the hero myth through its retelling and gives the reader a great transformative experience.
although i am sure that can not be used as valid excuse for being tardy for work.
thankyou for takeing the time in expressing your idears on transformation within the poem.
i agree that the poem is indeed a journey to apotheosis all be it one that is very human, introspective quest from man to ubermensch.
for me at the point of where the hero is little more then a man, the feat or trail he undertakes is somewhat anecdotal in the quest for ascension, it is the esoteric weapons, such as Hrunting which are devices of office for the hero, placed on him for the reader, those involed in the words of the storyteller, that set the beowulf apart from the men of the mead hall. for me the ancient sword is embamatic of beowulf will, it is beowulfs will that wins out, he could always meet his doom, the placeing of hurnting on beowulf by the humbled (newly enlightened) unferth makes it clear to those are yet to gain or be conviced of beowulfs will power.
as for the idea of the tutelage of the dark goddess in the form of grendels mother in as far as in the context of transformation. it is an idea i like and there is much evidance of the dark goddess or fallen woman as shield maiden. although in my heart of hearts i must disagree with it.for me it the male (such as the unferth or the Merlin) who grants or guides the esoteric weapon on to the hero that by doing so the hero has (for want of a better expression) has his 3rd eye opened, which is then used as a tool with the sword for becomeing king (god). evidance can be found for this all over the hero myth. i place a lot of stock into the idea that the magic sword is the authentic narrative foil of the hero.
as for the idea of the application of the jungian archetype of the syzygy here it is an idea that i like, a lot. if i may put a little spin on it, i think the idea feeds into much of the issues of beowulf , idears of the symbiosis of the old gods of nature and the christ of rome, the nature and "right mind" and proper place of the male and female without one or the other loseing its own (dark age) context. and as you rightly pointed out there seems to be so much evidance for this, the mix of the old gods and the new. for Wealtheow to transform the id into the superman. which makes me wonder if one of the reasons of the poem was to bring about a symbiosis, or middle way between the changes within myth and ritual
as with the idea of how beowulf fights grendal and the thanes not being able to unite with there shadows and battle takeing place in a dream only adds to the idea of syzygy.
as i hinted at early on in this post i again agree that within the mythic transformation leads to the access of knowledge by haveing something placed on the hero or consuming of something, which feeds into the whole ritual thing, be it Mead or dragons blood. the idea of grendal consumeing the thanes as so kind of Black mass and a parody of hospitality i feel is there within beowulf be it latant. a refection of the trgedy of errors when the hospitality of man and the magic of the elf - kind meet as is found in most other northen myth.(also i think there is somthing about ritaul and makeing rash covenants here but i will have to have a think about it)
i think it would indeed be safe to say that the smoke from beowulfs pyre is the ascension into asgard. as for some kind of reconciliation between Grendel and Christ i am not to sure although i would not reject it out of hand. although i am not sure if there is any real typological function going on in the poem. although as you say there is some evidance from saxon translations of the bible although i would say that this is a bit of a misreading, on further reading there seems very little evidance of this due to what Cains spilling Abels blood was emblamatic of that of vengance, where as christs blood was spilled for mercy, thus creating a new promise. (again with the whole ritaul/covenant thing)
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) but of course his christian faith was an important part of his life. Whether you should let your beliefs so colour your work is another question. In many ways LOTR is a kind of lament for a rustic middle class england that never existed. Some of its messages are a bit "off" now, but it was a product of its author and its times like everything else.
) so i dont know, i think that if the so called celtic knot is little more then a nice decoration then i may feel that it may inturn devalue Beowulf cos the last thing that beowulf is, is nothing more text based equivalent of decoration for the ear's. i do hope that this does not sound like i am hedging my bets here, its just that i think it would be wise to find out the real meaning of the "celtic" knot work and not let the "new age" taint its or beowulf's context.
Even if they did some use like this I wonder how far apart the response they would provoke in a dark age person would be from a woman born in the late 20th century?
