i dont really get all this, superman is not human he is a deus ex machina for a start, hes not human, look at the fantastic smallville, it deals with superman finding hes place as a stranger in a strange land oh and its all so over and finished and not intresting that its in its 100th season, look at stories like red son, true brit, and all star that explore the myth of this god, superman does not carry the same context as spider - man they are two vastly differing titles, superman holds massive populer appeal (thats not to say that spiderman does not, but i think thats got to do with three up market toy adverts of the last few years then the content of the comic) superman is a modern myth, a hero on a quest to find himself and to be more then his limits, its about toil and struggle the themes of identaty and the individaul are also important in superman, much more meaningfull then some web slinging Rom - Com. as much as i like spiderman i do get the feeling that he is an extension of the collective fanboys wet dreams
Superman really doesn't have massive popular appeal, Cosmic Hobo; his comics have notably failed to sell compared to Marvel comics (one of the reasons that Marvel owns 80% of the entire comic book industry), and his single motion picture flopped and left DC debating what to do with him in a series reboot. It's also interesting that you hold Smallville in contempt considering that it's the only Superman property that I've ever seen held as an example of Superman's capabilities as a modern 21st character.
I think the term "modern myth" is starting to stretch considering how long it has been since the Superman comics were really dominating the industry. Christopher Reeve revitalised the character back in the 1980s, but it's obvious that with modern special effects, that people just don't care as much as they used to. Superman needs a change.
yeah ok...next people will be saying that will eisner, bob kane alex raymound and chester gould are overated...
if any of you havent read it i think a few of you may get a kick out of stan lee's just imagine where stan "the man" lee reinvents superman and others.
make mine a marvel! make mine a marvel! make mine a Marvel!...sorry the brain washing was kicking in.
1) Please use punctuation. It's a small thing that stops reading your post from becoming a translation effort.
2) You seem to have missed the point of the topic. This is not about debating personal opinions, this is about discussing the factual positions of the Superman/Spider-man characters in the public domain.
Superman is a symbol that defines the superhero, like Mickey Mouse defines the animated cartoon character. We get that, there's no debate about it. But just like Mickey Mouse, Superman is not in the public eye anymore. People are not buying his comics or watching his films/television like they are with Spider-man. Spider-man is the biggest money-maker for the comic book industry, and he's a constantly appealing character to the general public. This is not up for debate; Superman is famous but not for anything he's done in the past twenty years.
So the question is what does Spider-man have that makes him so appealing? I suggest that it is in part due to stealing what originally made Superman popular; the symbol of a man tackling down-to-earth problems in a contemporary society. Since Superman went up into space and began fighting ginormous monsters, and Metropolis became increasingly distanced from the real world, that important symbol of "reality reflection" was up for the taking, and Spider-man made it his own.
You point out the rom-com element of Spider-man, but that only helps establish that grounding in reality. Seeing a character having to deal with the real world in more ways than just fighting criminals gives the series an extra layer of depth and meaning that people appreciate. That's not demeaning the abstract symbolism of Superman, but it does explain why Superman is typically ignored by the public.
Last edited by Raien on Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Did i say S... sorry i meant double yah only kidding, some interesting points have been covered here, and commercial success as counted in dollars doesn't necessarily mean icon status, one point made that i fell was very important was webs "Superman, and the "S" shield, are recognizable by people the world over, most of whom will have never read a comic in their life."
This to some extent can also be attributed to the Batman Theme tune from the 60's TV show, and the Bond Theme, in musical terms both if these reach iconic status.
It really doesnt matter that Superman is an alien, every man wants to be Super, and every woman wants a superman.
heterosexually speaking that is, thought i woulds add that, never know, someone may have picked up on it. _________________
This to some extent can also be attributed to the Batman Theme tune from the 60's TV show, and the Bond Theme, in musical terms both if these reach iconic status.
These, however, remain very much in the public eye.
Batman's 60's theme has been used, re-used and parodied in various media since the late 60's. The TV series may have been repeated in recent years, albeit on a little-seen digital channel; however, it's the ongoing use of the theme, beyond Batman (nice in-joke there too, methinks) that's helped maintained that particular theme within the public eye.
The Bond theme is used in every single Bond film and has continued that since Bond's introduction in 1962, not to mention the fact it too is used, re-used and parodied in various media.
As an example, the music, particularly with the former, in my opinion at least, has transcended the character.
Anyway, back to topic:
We've covered the oh-so iconic 'S' shield already.
Tony Stark is God.
Oh, wait, wrong thread...
Icons.
Right.
I don't think there's an argument here that Superman enjoys a greater iconic status, for the time being, at least, with the mainstream audience; however, I think there is a debate here concerning Spider-Man's relevance to today's society and how the modern audience is relating more to that character than they are Superman.
Superman still sells well beyond the comic book industry. Superman Returns still made a ton of money at both the cinema and on DVD; and it likely made far more in assorted merchandising deals. However, I wonder if Superman Returns' critical reception has given Warners pause for thought in a potential follow-up.
The original plan had been an immediate sequel, directed by Bryan Singer, concentrating on a certain General Zod; however, fast forward three years and we're still no nearer to production. Singer is involved in projects elsewhere; Brandon Routh is involved in projects elsewhere and DC are concentrating their efforts on other projects (Green Lantern and a third Batman film).
The critical reception has harmed Superman in the mainstream audience, from all appearances.
Contrast this to Spider-Man.
Spider-Man 4 has been green-lit and it's highly likely that Sam Raimi will return to the helm, with complete creative control (something he did not enjoy with Spider-Man 3, hence the inclusion of Venom and, as Raimi himself has described, a situation of perhaps too many cooks spoiling the broth). Furthermore, Spider-Man 5 may be made back-to-back.
A poor critical reception to Spider-Man 3 hasn't harmed that particular franchise and I daresay future instalments will go gangbusters at the box office, moreso than a Superman film would.
There is therefore an argument that Spider-Man is becoming increasingly relevant with the mainstream audience. There is no one here who would dispute the iconic 'S' shield (Superman); however, as a character with mass appeal, Superman is struggling to compete with more audience-relatable characters.
We've seen that in the comics for some time now (the exception being True Brit, Red Son & All Star Superman, although once you take a look at the creators involved, not to mention the fact these stories were told outside of continuity, it's not difficult to see why); and, it seems, the mainstream, non-comic book reading audience is starting to catch up to that point. Smallville may also be an exception; however, I do have the impression it takes a little from the example Marvel established in the 60's.
Spider-Man is increasingly relevant to all and continues to be so in both the comics (despite the critical reception to One More Day, in my opinion) and in the films.
So... discuss!
Bats; every man indeed wants to be super... and use that to get laid, surely! _________________ With Great Power, Comes Great... Potential to ROB BANKS!!! HAHAH! THAT'S HOW TO BEAT THE RECESSION!!!
It's interesting that all the stories held up as Classic Superman (All-Star Superman, Red Son) are non-continuity spin-off series. Considering that these books are distinguished by re-establishing Superman's relationship with humanity, I would say this supports my assertion that the character's current problem with mainstream appeal is that Superman does not spend enough time dealing with real people. His stories are always cluttered by massive monsters and aliens.
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only kidding, some interesting points have been covered here, and commercial success as counted in dollars doesn't necessarily mean icon status, one point made that i fell was very important was webs "Superman, and the "S" shield, are recognizable by people the world over, most of whom will have never read a comic in their life."
