Has Spider-man replaced Superman?

Raien · Regular Joined: 20 Apr 2009 Posts: 118

I've been told numerous times that Superman is the icon that defines superheroes, because he was one of the first real superheroes and he represents an ideal about an average man who can do good deeds for humanity with his powers. But as I read more about Superman's adventures, I can't help but feel that Superman has for the most part abandoned the tradition of a human saving humans by developing a presence in cosmic storytelling and fighting massive monster/alien villains.

And since his departure from tradition in the 1940/1950s, I find it interesting that Marvel created Spider-man, a character with an almost identical background to Superman (shy persona, doting adopted parents, job at a newspaper) who very quickly becomes the world's most popular superhero. Part of me wonders if the focus on human stories is what drove both Superman and then Spider-man into the public consciousness, and that what currently holds Superman back from popularity is a general ignorance of this important element.

Reaper · Uber Geek! Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 3633

One of the things that a lot of people don't like about Superman is that he is basically a god and realistically nothing should stand in his way (besides kryptonite) so these people find him boring.
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Batmanuel · Mod Joined: 20 Oct 2006 Posts: 2500 Location: Canterbury

The one thing that Superman has is the S in a Shield.
this is instantly recognizable world wide, it breaks all language barriers, and is recognized by all races, show an eskimo a golden shield with an S in it chances are he will say SUPERMAN, it is this symbol above all that is iconic, if DC were to drop the Superman Logo on the comic and replace it with just the shield i doubt that it would make an ounce of difference to sales, in fact it may help sales in some foreign countries so powerful is the brand.

You just don't get the same impact with a black Spider.

But you are right about the parallels between the two characters in so far as they both work for papers.. blah, blah, blah.

even as a young child i noted parallels between many Marvel and DC characters, we had Superman and Spider-man, the Flash and Quicksilver, Hawkeye and the Green Arrow, JLA and Avengers, and so on. what separated these was the company's approach and the different branding, the Marvel comics being in its time far more contemporary than the DC comics in subject matter and less condescending to its readership.
times change and styles progress and today Spider Man is the single most licensed character in the world, this is fact, however as for iconic i feel the the shield has it.
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Longshot · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:58 am Post subject:

I would agree to an extent that Spider-man has taken the popular culture matel from Superman in a lot of the world now. This being down to the fact that the Spider-man films are some of the most popular movies at the moment [not to my taste, but I can't ignore it], and the main outlet for Superman at the moment is in the guise of Dawson's Creek, where the symbol isn't even used, neither the name.

I do agree however that as merely a symbol Superman still stands head and sholders above Spidey. For the people who don't watch the films or TV shows then they will still side with Superman.
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Robin The Boy Wonder · Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:00 pm Post subject:

I think Superman remains the true comic book icon, both within the industry and the mainstream, non-comic-book-reading, audience.

Yes, the 'S' shield is very iconic, and very likely recognised in the same way that almost everyone alive has heard of David Beckham at some point. Why they recognise the 'S' will differ from person to person, whether it be through experiencing the comic book or the films, particularly the Richard Donner ones.

Spider-Man, however, is also an icon, albeit in a slightly different fashion. A black spider is only a black spider and isn't the iconic symbol the 'S' shield is; however, I wonder if, as a character, Spider-Man isn't more interesting to a modern-day audience.

Peter Parker is a real-life character, one who we can all relate to, whether on a major or minor scale. He has girlfriend issues, is persecuted by alleged superiors, suffers from various ailment and has close family who dote on him constantly. Haven't we all wanted, at some stage in our lives, the opportunity to break free and swing through the skies with nary a care in the world? We can relate to Peter Parker and, when he pulls on the mask, we can enjoy the experience of Spider-Man with him.

Please bear in mind that, in both the comics and films, Peter Parker is the principal character who just so happens to be Spider-Man.

Contrast this to Superman. Clark Kent isn't Superman. Superman is a God pretending to be Clark Kent, a superhuman being who, while raised by an all-American family, can never hide from what he truly is. Superman is one of the most difficult characters to relate to as we can never truly place ourselves in his standing.

So, my reply is that Spider-Man is easier to translate to a modern-day audience and is therefore the more popular of the two; however, Superman remains the industry's icon, standing head and shoulders above all others.
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Raien · Regular Joined: 20 Apr 2009 Posts: 118

I think the point I'm making is this.

Superman used to be both a symbolic icon and a character icon. But when he lost that character icon, Spider-man made it his own. Is it possible that Superman could take back that character icon in order to give new life to the Superman series?

Web of Fear · Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:02 am Post subject:

But as everyone else has pointed out, Superman hasn't lost his iconic status. Superman, and the "S" shield, are recognizable by people the world over, most of whom will have never read a comic in their life.

Your perception of the current state of Superman comics, has nothing to do with that status.
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Raien · Regular Joined: 20 Apr 2009 Posts: 118

Robin The Boy Wonder · Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject:

Ah, I think this has more to do with the character's actual popularity in today's industry and, perhaps, his relevance in today's comic book market also.

I remember reading an interview with Joe Quesada about two years ago where he commented that Superman could very easily go the same way as The Phantom in the next thirty years. He suggested that many characters had evolved over the years, citing several Marvel characters as an example, from how they were first conceived in the 60's & 70's into the modern-day characters we presently follow. The important aspect in evolving these characters is not to betray who they actually are at their very core and, instead, enhance upon it.

Quesada suggested that Superman hadn't evolved over the years and that he was still essentially the same as he was thirty or forty years ago (the marriage to Lois Lane being the only exception).

I think he had a point.

Superman is essentially standing still as a character. There have been occasions when there has been a real change to Superman's status quo (Death of Superman & The Blue Superman events spring to mind); however, after each storyline had ended, he always returned to that original, classic, status. Superman is barely affected by change to and around him in his world.

Of course, there may be varying reasons for this.

One is that few comic book characters stray from their original set-up. Spider-Man is an obvious example here where his marriage was effectively ret-conned 18 months ago (to differing levels of success, dependent on who you ask) to that of a young 20-something, single character. That said, he has evolved into a young man after his introduction as a high-school teenage. His role is no longer Flash Thompson's victim and doting on his beloved Aunt; instead, the focus is more on how he is affected by his young adult supporting cast.

Superman, however, seems to be standing still.

And, of course, it's hard to empathise with a character who is essentially a God. The only Superman story I've read in recent times was All Star Superman, a comic book that celebrated Superman's God-like status rather than attempt him to be more... human.
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Raien · Regular Joined: 20 Apr 2009 Posts: 118

Well said, Boy Wonder. You've hit the nail on the head.

People are quite happy with the evolution of a character so long as it respects recognisable character traits; that's one reason why All-Star Batman & Robin was so reviled.

What I particularly like about Peter Parker's evolution was that it reflected a movement away from the dated geek stereotype into a more fleshed-out character that reflected his strength of character as Spider-man. The fact that Ultimate Spider-man didn't even bother dragging out the "geek" part of Peter's character shows how good the transition was.

As for Superman's "God problem", it doesn't really obstruct potential evolution of the character. His symbol can be challenged, can't it? Like Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen? And what about his Clark Kent persona? How would a Southern American perspective of the world influence his moral and political positions? As I said, there's some great potential for the character, but I feel like it's going to waste.

Actually, I could say the same thing for a lot of DC series. I find it so difficult to get into because the mythology doesn't reflect what I recognise in the world around me. I've always wondered what Batman would like in a 21st century Gotham, how he would survive in a world where the nature of crime is changing and declining. A new perspective on the subject of madness would be interesting to see.