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| Batmanuel |
What has happened to Comics InternationalComics International was launched in April 1990 to fill a need for a trade magazine for the US and UK comics industry. From its 48-page 4,000 copy launch, it has expanded to as large as 160 pages with many pages in full colour and a circulation in excess of 24,000.This publication was to become the single most important publication for the entire comic book industry, with Dez Skinn at the helm the magazine / newspaper was soon to garner total respect from every corner of the industry. If you had an announcement to make you could be sure that taking out a quarter page ad in CI would pretty much put it into every single hand that counted, all in one almighty swoop. Why was this, it was because it became the lynch pin of the industry and everybody, and I mean everybody who counts read it, it was that simple, comics now had a voice, it was a powerful voice, and it commanded respect, if you wanted your small Indy comic to be noticed, and were fortunate enough to get it reviewed in CI, then it would be read by a shed load of like minded people, Job Done. Having achieved this Comics International had and created a huge responsibility (with great power) which since Issue 200: Released November 2006 has sadly been lacking. So what has happened? why has Comics international just dried up and died leaving comic retailers in there time of need without a voice? Why when this Industry is at its height with Movies like Sin City, 300, Iron Man kicking arse at the box office are we left with small half hearted, badly researched one or two page articles in the odd collectors magazine, and an occasional copy of CI, while companies like Waterstones are cleaning up? Why is it that when we do get a new Comics International its full of doom and gloom, and how things are not like they used to be, and the industry is in decline, and sales are down, and someone please tell me how am I going to find that old Dangerman Annual I used to own when I was 10.…Sigh. Jesus if I was a potential investor with a bit of cash to splash and was looking for a new business to invest in, I would of couse do a bit of research, read the industrys trade press, and F**King RUN. Why is it that when we do get a new comics international its full stuff like Thunderbirds instead of World War Hulk, Dangerman instead of Secret Invasion, (Secret Invasion by the way is one of the latest kick ass comic out now, as is Kick Ass ) not that anyone involved with CI would know, your all to busy searching out that copy of TV21 you missed. And then doing a three page article on it, Now that’s going to bring new, young blood into the fold isn’t it. You know the new young blood who are buying there graphic novels in W H Smith, because they didn’t know the was a Comic Shop just around the corner. as a retailer of long standing (December 1989) why have I been left with absolutely no single effective place to advertise or have my say, You have a responsibility to me (or at least you had, comics international has become the butt of jokes of late) So what’s next, personally I think we should drag Dez out of retirement kicking and screaming, handcuff him to a typewriter and make him have it, it may take him another ten years to undo the damage that’s been done, but hey we will feed him and give him Beer. Alternately, who were those guys in the nineties who tried to launch a comics new rag, I cant remember, their names, but it was a good rag. Not as good as Comics International at that time, but considerably better than Comics International now. So are there any young vibrant (finger on the pulse) people out there who love comics enough to start something new? Or are we just going to curl up and type stuff on comic forums and do nothing? I have invested twenty years of my life to this industry, and it has to be said it wasn’t only for the money, not that there has been loads of that. I have learnt to move with the times, and embraced new trends, while still loving the stuff I started with. Should the likes of myself and other retailers just through the towel in and give it to the big stores? How long will it be before you will be able to buy The Watchmen in Tescos for a ball braking bargain price of £3.99, and the latest craze form America sweeping the nation “The Amazing Adventure of the Global Green Tax Machine” here it is piled high at the special introductory price of only £9.77. How long will it be before the only comic stories you will be able to buy are the ones that they want you to buy If you want something SIP, Groo, Nightly News Cherubs or Young Liars, then tough shit, because your comic shop will be closed. . When it comes down to the crunch Comics International having set itself up as the much respected voice of the industry needs to pull its finger out… Now. Not tomorrow, not next week, not next Christmas, but now, before its all completely lost. The industry needs its voice back. And Mike, before you launch into an attack upon me for saying this, have a little think about some of the things we spoke about the last time we you called me, you are letting us down old mate. Big time. Post Script: Anyone out there who reads this and agrees with it, if you are part of a comics discussion forum plese feel free to copy and paste it into said forum, i want to infect the internet with this message. Thanks. |
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| CatFang |
Re: What has happened to Comics InternationalThis is a really brilliant post and has given me much to think about. It is also a really long post, so I had many thoughts and my reply is really long, too. You have been warned
Working in the magazine publishing industry there is one simple fact that stands out above all other – THE TRADE PRESS IS DYING. This is the case across all industries and all vertical sectors. Every single publisher and media channel is struggling with this at the moment – no one knows the solution for sure but there are some good indications of how this will all shake out. The reasons for this are pure economics. The reasons behind the economics, as always, are massive cultural change due to changes in expectation and behaviour because, for the first time, technology is starting to let humans behave like humans, rather than having to try to think like machines (that is something I’ll leave for another time!) Anyway - Trade Press, whatever the sector, fulfils the same function: To get industry news to a niche audience. Here is the thing about news – if it is not up to date it is not news. Technology has made people used to getting information as close to instantly as possible. Not only getting it, but being able to add to it, comment on it, call each other gay for believing it…whatever. People are no longer content to be merely “consumers”, they expect more control, at the least they want to be collaborators and in many cases they want to be creators So, the first problem we have is that by the time the print comes out (whatever its schedule – and this problem is affecting daily newspapers more than anyone at the moment) it is often is nothing more than a round up / précis of what people have already read online, heard on the tv / podcasts etc. This kind of “cannibalistic journalism” is easy and lazy (you only have to see how many times the exact same words about something have just been copied and pasted around various websites) and, if you only have a small staff on a little magazine, kind of inevitable. Getting content is hard these days. Getting enough original content to feed the meat grinder of information hungry, time jealous, short attention span readers who will be off to the next place the minute they are not entertained is well nigh impossible. This has been said so often it is a cliché now, but the dynamics of power in publishing have changed. The readership is no longer pathetically grateful for any little scraps of information a media channel offers them, they no longer gasp in awe at how the latest “scoop” was uncovered, or pant with excitement because a journalist “actually got to speak to Person X”. We have google now, we can all be intrepid boy reporters, and information has never been so free. Another point to consider is the temporal control that the web has given to marketing people (although I am not going to get into my issues with I see as the flaws in much comics marketing here – let’s just say that advertising, especially when preaching to the converted, is a marketing tool and not marketing itself). Now campaigns can be controlled and success measured to an astonishing degree. Collateral can be networked together like never before – for instance I can decide that I want a text interview with a creator to go live on my site 10 seconds after my TV ad is played so that people seeing the ad and searching for it on google will get what looks like “latest news”, and the TV ad can have an red button interactive link to additional content that gives a code to order the previous DVD at a discount, and then I want all comments from YouTube drawn back into my blog where I talk about the latest “insider view” that you can go and discuss in my forum – or even better in someone else’s and save my PR budget by doing it for me….Previously I could have sent out some paper with the info on, or talked to a journalist on the phone and then got something out at some later date – by which time I might have wanted to update it, change the focus, add a new image or whatever. As for the reverse people can discuss things almost live. No waiting for your letter to be printed and then someone else’s reply to it being printed 3 months later, by which time everyone has forgotten about the thing being talked about. But even if CI was to relaunch with a really good comprehensive cross channel package it would have 4 major things to contend with: 1) Unless you have something unique to offer people aren’t going to pay for what they can get for free elsewhere. 2) By the rules of interaction the popular tend to get more popular (think about school playgrounds for an illustration of this) and there are already places that people consider “dependable sources”. As they are considered in this way by the readers publishers/creators/studios etc want to put their stuff there, because they put their stuff there readers see them as more dependable – it’s know as a virtuous circle of trust publishing. CI would have to work very hard to get people to try it, trust it, build up its audience etc. 3) People like specialised information rather than general information, as a rule. What use is something that is indiscriminately about “all comics” if I am only interested in specific genres, writers, styles etc? It means that out of 160 pages I might want to read 20. 4) A big chunk of CI was always a catalogue and classified ads – the web does both of those things so much better. This is not mass market stuff. You have never got a potential audience of the entire world. 24,000 copies sounds like a lot. Unless the bulk of these were sold on definite annual subscription the magazine is not really viable unless the cover price gets so high that no one will buy it. There is a problem here. It is not that people do not want magazines or “print” in general anymore, you can’t read a website on the toilet! Well, I guess you can but it will cost you a lot more if your laptop goes down the pan then your copy of CI
Of course different channels have different strengths. No one wants to read a 5000 word in depth article off a screen, the same as you would rather watch the trailer than read a description of it on page. There are physical and psychological reasons for that I won’t get into as this post is already getting very long and I’m sure most of you aren’t interested in them anyway. So instead of competing the channels should start working together to reinforce each other. This is a business cultural shift that for the most part hasn’t happened yet.
It sounds like when CI was launched it was ahead of its time. It was “the place to be” if you wanted to reach those readers. I remember pouncing on it and eagerly flicking through to find the latest things. But that was before the web (god, I am so old..) by the end the only reason I was still getting it was that I was too lazy to remember to cancel it. Let’s look at the reach for a minute. What is a readership of 24,000 worth now? Given how many comics readers are on the internet the question becomes “why do you ONLY want to reach 24,000 of them?”. And who are these people? Well, we know they are “people who like comics”, but what does that mean? Where are they? What is the point of putting of putting an advert for a shop in a town that only 1% of the readers come from, why advertise that you sell British Anthology titles when most of the readers like Manga (a magazine, of course, can’t tell you where its readers come from to such a degree, but a website can – and how long they stayed, what sections they read etc etc – it can also deliver differently focussed ads in the relevant sections)? Of course the answer is that you do mailorder, or have an online shop, or an whatever sellers account – but all of those things point back to the web and away from the print. ComicSpace which is a tiny cul de sac really for Indy Creators gets 4million unique visitors per month. Also why should I hope and pray that a magazine deigns to give my Indy Magnum Opus a cursory glance resulting in a few lines of text, or if I am lucky and one of the writers likes it, a review, when I can send PDF previews directly to hundreds or even thousands of sites that may give it a mention. Not to mention that online space is unlimited (in practical terms) whereas in a magazine you have a number of pages. Online I can just add another page so if I want a gallery of 100 pages of internal art I just load it and away I go. More importantly I create once and each additional reader delivers slightly more profit as there are no additional costs for printing/delivery etc meaning that once I have recovered whatever my costs were for initial creation everything else is profit. What is more it can live online forever. If someone misses an issue or wants to refer back to an article from 2 years ago to make a killing point and crush an opponent on a forum well, google will know where to find it. Yeah, you could keep boxes of back issues in your loft, but you would never really go up there and look for that one sentence you want to quote. Actually by the end I thought comics international had become really an internet round up and a bunch of opinion columns by people I did not know and had no reason to be interested in. I guess that was after the departure of Dez Skinn though.
There is so much more opportunity to get your voice heard now than ever before, and under your control. You just have to go to different places to do it. You are no longer beholden to CI.
It always strikes me as strange for an medium that has so much content to do with the future just how much it wants to stay safe in the past. The past was not great, there were no jetpacks!
You better get yourself on Dragon’s Den then
I agree there is a gap, but I don’t think it is in print – or not in print only.
This is the shape of things to come. There is no such thing as a “single effective place to advertise”. There are multiple places to advertise effectively to specialist groups. There are different ways of advertising that are more effective for certain products / demographics. Display ads are not always the best to achieve your goals
Why is that nothing? The UK Comic Book podcasting forum alone has 3500 active members, which probably gives it 40-ish thousand readers. It contains discussions, podcasts, galleries, classified ads, events…you name it – and that is a small one. Newsarama has over 7 million visitors This forum has nearly 100 registered users which probably means it has over 1000 regualr readers, and it shows up really well in Google.
Not long. But that is the same with everything. Anyway, we can still only get the stuff that Diamond can be arsed to ship, unless you have a lovely comic shop owner who goes above and beyond the call of duty for you. The answer is going to be that you creators are going to be selling direct a lot more – whether that is to shops or customers. Look at the music industry – that is where the future is headed. This is not to say that I think there is no future for specialist shops by any means – for one thing customers will not want to have to go to every publisher every month and make separate orders, they want a pull list at a shop. Whether that shop is in their local town matters less – look at us – we have bought our comics remotely from Manny now for longer than we used to come to the shop in person several times a week. I think this forum alone proves that a “shop” is much more than the “room where the till is” – I have learned about so many more things to read that I would never have found about here than I ever did in CI. I have a whole other rant about control of distribution that is not for here. Overall though, I think when there is still passion like this about then whatever people may predict the industry is not dying...but it may be painfully transforming. . |
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| Batmanuel |
Ok.
I am going to keep this short as i can, for no other reason other than i am tired but i cant not reply. i posted this rant on the Comics International forum, since then it has had 34 views, and on this forum 25 views. so digital vs print. so far it seems that the printed version wins hands down. I think that maybe you missed the point of this, the question was what the hell has happened to Comics International, Not Comics International vs the Internet. You see, a hell of a lot of my customers have been asking this question, so i figure that if its happening in my shop, it must be happening in others. Comics International was more than just a trade magazine. Its not about up to date reviews, its not about up to date shipping lists, its about having a publication where for a small fee you can immerse yourself with other like minded people, as a retailer you knew that your ad would hit an absolute 100% like minded audience, as a comic book reader you had the free classified if you were seeking something out, or indeed if you had something to offer, the opinions page, and all the other things that made CI what it was, as a publisher, it was an absolute must place to be seeh, and as a distributor also. yes all this is available on the Internet, but when it comes down to brass tacks, a copy of CI added to your monthly pull list would give you near everything you wanted without hours of searching through the pap to get to the point. and thats the point i was making, its was when CI was a regular once a month fix that it was a must have source of information, and unlike the Internet you didn't have to spend hours siphoning though, it was all there in one handy package that you could roll up, put in you back pocket and take anywhere with you. and if indeed the electronic medium is fast becoming the be all and end all of everything, then why is it when i walk into any newsagent, or WHS type Bookstore / newsagents do i see racks upon racks of magazines with everything in them ranging from trainspotting to childbirth? We have had News at Ten since the birth of television, it hasn't put the newspaper out of business has it, no. and why? because people like to pick up a cheap rag that the can take with them anywhere, read here and there, agree, disagree, fill in the crossword, read the funny bits and the small adds and throw away, until tomorrow, when the latest instalment would be waiting for them at the news sellers.
Yes there is. if i am a car manufacturer then its gotta be in auto express. if I'm a dog breeder then its Dog Breeders Magazine for me, if i am a modeler the its Amazing Modeler, if i am into model trains, then its the model train enthusiasts monthly, and if I'm am into comic books? then its Wizard, and because there is nothing home grown left, and its not really applicable as this is an American magazine. on the subject of wizard, why is that still being published? 1: because people want to read it. 2: because its still being published. (regually) 3. because its under better management. 4. because the Internet can never replace the human visionary, just like news at 10 could never repalce the news paper. So although i understand what you are saying, i dont entirly agree with the outcome
are you sure that you want comics to go down this road? I sure as hell dont. |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
I've just spent the last 10 minutes reading the three posts here (yep, thought it was worth my time, folks - and during a Euro 2008 game so this must be good). This is all very, very interesting...
...and I'm not sure what I can say to add to this. CatFang makes an excellent point in that the industry is transforming and that these are uncertain times for the industry as a whole. Not just for the retailer but for creators and publishers alike too. Before I mention Comics International, I'm going to mention an online discussion I was involved with a couple of years ago that perhaps highlights one of the transformations the industry is currently enduring. My buddy was a huge Avengers fan. Really big too. He understood and absorbed even the minutiae within Avengers and its extended family. Then along came Disassembled and New Avengers - this guy was pissed. He was angry with Marvel. He was angry with Bendis. And he stopped buying Avengers... he then stopped buying comics and then went one step further. He sold his entire collection but remained a rabid comics fan. He'd downloaded everything. Every single issue of Avengers was now stored on his hard drive as was anything else he could lay his hands on. I believe he now downloads his comics weekly (illegally, I might add; something that I still can't quite condone despite having done it myself on the odd occasion), reads them and stores them on his computer. He is still a comic fan; however, he now argues that comics don't clutter his home. He doesn't have vast numbers of back issue boxes clogging his bedroom; instead, they're all saved on a hard drive and backed up daily for good measure, in case the worst happens and he loses his collection. What then surprised me was the sheer number of people who download their comics illegally rather than buy them in the shop. There are many who 'try to buy'; however, there are also quite a number who download their comics... and that's that. There are a number of them who used to post on Newsarama when I was an active member (no names). They probably still do. And there are a number who were quite excited when a main illegally operated comic uploader was named on a recent article (whereby Marvel & DC were threatening to sue certain web sites for allowing their material to be downloaded) purely because they now knew where to go to download their ill-gotten gains. Here, then, is an example of the industry's transformation. Regular comic fans who, some years ago, were buying their comics in the comic shop; fans who now download them instead, whether legally or illegally. And the problems here is that we simply don't know how many people are doing this. It could be in the hundreds, more likely in the thousands, perhaps more; however, my point is that publishers are struggling to identify their audience beyond the comic shop. I realise that, so far, my post has very little to do with the discussion at hand; however, your posts made me think about and recall this online discussion - and it felt quite natural that this be posted here. With regard to Comics International, I tend to lean more toward CatFang's argument, I think. There are many methods now within which to advertise your product, more than just a magazine can offer; although Bats makes an excellent point regarding where dog breeders would advertise and so forth. This all makes me wonder if, in the modern comic book industry, Comics International is still relevant, a little bit like Wizard. Yes, people do still buy Wizard; however, the publication began life as one that was sold only within comic book stores. About, oh, five years ago (I think), they made a decision to sell their magazines in American newsagents (7/11's?) and their supermarkets too. They mentioned at the time their reason for doing this was to reach as many comic book fans as possible; however, this also came at a time when online news sites, like Newsarama, were attracting increasingly more interest from comic publishers like Marvel, DC, Top Cow, Image, and so on. Call me cynical; however, it sounds to me as if their profits were declining and a decision needed to be made to put the material into as many hands as possible to maximise sales. Take a look and compare Newsarama to Wizard now. The only reason Wizard can sometimes pip Newsarama to the news-post is when a publisher offers them inside material months in advance of the actual solicitations. Remember when, a few months before Civil War was released, Wizard offered a series of teases about what was to come in the Marvel Universe? I do - I was one of the fanboy speculators online who tried to predict what new Fantastic Four would emerge from Civil War. Otherwise, news about upcomic projects reaches Newsarama first and foremost. Even the solicitations you see in Previews are available online a couple of weeks in advance (I think September's solicits are available this week), something that, ten years ago, was almost unheard of. I guess my point is what can a Comics International publication offer in an age where the typical comic book reader's wants, and sometimes needs if you know where to go, are usually immediately available online...? After all, you can take your iPhone to the loo, y'know... |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
And yes, I know Comics International is more than just 'news'; it's just the area I chose to concentrate on.
Sorry. And why did an ad for Belinda Carlisle's website come up at the bottom of the thread...? 
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| CatFang |
See, this is why I love this forum. Once I got used to posting here I joined a couple of others, but nowhere else actually wanted to *DISCUSS* anything (and in the middle of the football, too) so I found I gradually let them fall away.
I guess I was spoiled with starting here 
Anyway - My initial post was a bit rambly (I have a large bee in my bonnet about this kind of thing as this is entirely what my work is about!) and very long, and I think some of what I was saying may have got lost. So, to distill and clarify: 1) I did not mean my point to come off as "CI vs The Internet" in general. The point I was trying to make was that by the end of its previous life CI was offering me personally nothing I had not already read on the internet - and much of it had been amended with new info by the time CI came out. 2) If CI was working as a viable product "as was" it, or something like it, would still be coming out on a regular schedule. They would not have canned something that was printing money for them - if they did then there is no saving them! 3) I am not saying that this is the "death of print" or anything like that. Different media work best for different things and always will. That is why we DO still have News at Ten and why WH Smiths is still in business. I subscribe to one magazine (LRB) that I never visit the website for as the content does not work online, and one (ImagineFX) where the magazine and website work really well in tandem but do not contain the same stuff. 4)If CI is to survive it will need to find something unique that it can offer - as Robing TBW mentions about Wizard getting the inside scoop on civil war, or maybe something like a retailer focussed forum, anyway, whatever, they aren't paying me to do their business dev! 5)What I meant by "becoming the same as the music industry" is not what I want to see happening, but I bet you it will - I give it 5 years. Although what I meant was less about downloading then the shift in the economic model that the music industry has seen - ie the actual CDs (singles or albums) are now considered almost as loss leader marketing collateral for the associated merchandise such as t-shirts, gig tickets, ringtones, lunchboxes, figures, tab books etc - now tell me that you can't see floppies going the same way. I cannot agree about the ads though. There is no such thing as a perfect place to advertise. I can't see that something that aims to be as broad as CI can claim that everyone reading it is a "like minded audience" just because they like stories delivered in a certain medium. I would be interested to hear what measurable results an ad in CI can deliver to a retailer - obviously I am not asking you to put that kind of info about your business on a forum! but maybe when I next see you - but audience ad response behaviour is changing in all media due to expectations about context sensitive ad delivery online. Also it may be that that Dog Breeders respond best to ads in mags and people buying cars respond best to ads on radio, or online, or whatever. The thing is that I don't have to wade through piles of pap to find the monthly info I want. There are places I go on the internet regularly (this being one of them) that I trust. There is a magazine called The Comics Journal that I keep being tempted by. Some of its content is available for free on its website (to tempt readers with its quality, depth and originality - my words, not theirs) and it is very tempting. I see they have started offering an online only subscription so people have the choice about the format they want to access the info in. I would like to get into a discussion of the downloading comics issue, but despite my best efforts this has got quite long again. Just to quickly say for now that I consider magazine back issues would be "cluttering up my house" in a way that comics (which are the same to all intents and purposes) wouldn't - as I like them as objects. Saving space hardly makes up for lying out full length with a beautiful absolute edition! But then there is the Wowio/Freakangels angle to consider - but another day! In the end the medium we like our info in comes down to personal preference, as does the kind of ads we respond to. Of course the best trick you can pull off is to match those things up. I guess we need to know why CI changed so much (or not enough) and that this is what Bats is hoping Mike Conroy will reply to on the CI forum.
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| Reaper |
Interesting topic so thought I might actually reply to something for once. Not sure what I'll say is going to be any different but anyway.
I'll start with the downloading of comics, as most of you know I tend to download a lot of stuff ranging from film, games, etc etc, this includes comics. I do buy a certain amount of titles per month but that does have to fall within a certain budget and a lot of the titles I download are just so I've read it as it's come out and I then read it once my copy of WC has arrived. There are some others that I download simply to stay abreast of certain topics or external story threads that help build an overall picture e.g the Frontline series or Fantastic Four - Secret Invasion. I can no longer afford to buy all these titles and by rights I thus shouldn't read them and i will take any flack people want to dish out. It is a worrying trend because there are plenty of people out there who have downloaded the entire series of Transmopolitan or Runaways and don't think twice about actually buying them, thus depriving the industry of much needed money. Does this have anything to do with the pricing of the comics or are people just too cheap to buy things when they can get it for free? If you ask Sarah she will say they're too expensive and it drives her mad that I buy them at all because I read through them pretty quick and for her £2-£3 for a 15 minute read is too much especially now that we've moved out. For me they mean a bit more than that, as you can get involved in the world and appreciate or hate artwork and story twists (I can understand boy wonders friend who dropped Avengers, look at us and Spider-Man). Maybe the buying of comics and downloading of comics could be viewed a separation between casual fans who probably wouldn't be involved in comics were it not for downloading being free and actual comic fans who pay for the priviledge. Thinking about this media freedom stuff and comics international, it reminded me of PC Gamer. I used to buy PC Gamer every month up until a year or so ago when it became sporadic. Now I rarely buy it because most of the news I used to read in there I've found online and I don't find the reviews a big enough draw because I can't play games too much due to my RSI. I still buy Empire magazine however which to an extent suffers from a lack of new 'news', it does however contain articles and indepth previews not found on the website or indeed a lot of websites and this is what keeps bringing me back (that and the movie crossword at the end of each issue). I think that printed media really needs to make use indepth articles that people do still prefer to read on paper to make sure their products sell otherwise we will all be reading off tablet PCs. |
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| Batmanuel |
OK
Update, from the Comics International Forums the thread has now received 51 views and no, repeat, no replies. That's a far cry from the 24,000. one could expect from CI in a first week of publication's potential views. one up to the printed page me thinks, on the other-hand, does this mean that Comics International is now officially DEAD? has the embalming fluid gone off? will all life as we know it end now? will International Rescue, rescue? will the Avengers Avenge? or is it a case of this agent doesn't work for that agency anymore? Check out the CI site and see what you think at http://www.comicsinternational.co.uk/default.asp and let me know what you think. Meanwhile .... Catfang:
Awe Shucks, you know how to score brownie points dont you
It is an absolute criteria that one should on occasion ramble, otherwise i would be all on my own as a rambler  and that wouldn't be cricket now would it.
51 views vs 24,000, I'm not gloating....honest, well it was before Comics International died and was resurrected as a Gerry Anderson Puppet, so maybe its a bit unfair.
Dez didn't can it, he sold it, its just that the guy who he sold it too doesn't know what to do with it. [/quote]I am not saying that this is the "death of print" or anything like that.
The Heroes online comic was collected and sold first as an hardcover, then as a soft cover, the as a dirty slut of a Titan edition, how many copies it total do you think were sold? considering they were free on the Internet that is. Perodical vs electronic medium Perodical 2 Electronic Medium 1
Best not hold my breath though, although i would have thought that i would have got some sort of response, maybe they are all dead after all, cool new Zombie story
Boy Wonder:
It doesn't matter, if you can or cant add to this, the fact that you have taken time to say so means that you are at least thinking about it, Job Done.
The Industry has been constantly changing, hell i know one retailer who couldn't survive the Image / Valiant onslaught of the nineties, he now no longer sells comics, where others who embraced the change survived, those retailers are still here, Valiant is not, and Image has changed beyond all recognition. Boy Wonder:
No this is a very valid point, and as the Internet comic is turned into print ie: Heroes, as if the comic book turned into a digital file ready for download. the point of this is, well i am not sure, but we do seem to be entering into a much more throw away society that before. I am sure there will be a backlash to this, maybe not now, maybe not in ten years, but when the hard drive crashes it takes its data with it.
That's if you can afford many methods to advertise your product.
A lot of people still buy Wizard, and Comics International sale used to piss all over Wizard sales, much in the same way that Wizard sales used to piss all over Comics International sales in the States. The only difference now it we Still have Wizard, and it still sells, and it still sells in numbers similar to those which it used to sell. So exellent example boy wonder, you see comics international in its prime WAS the British equivalent to Wizard in its prime, and no online presence can ever match that, and no online presence can give the retailer this one perfect place to advertise, and to be able to reach so many with so little 
Now i haven't grammar checked this post so if i have rambled off a bit here and there, HA, TOUGH.
But i post this with all the greatest of respect to those i have quoted, and those i have referred too
PS if i have missquoted Reaperasbouywondereascatfangasreaper, whoops sorry, but i cant seem to get it to edit without rewriting the whole bloody thing. |
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| CatFang |
I'm sure you're not... But the point is you KNOW 51 people actually clicked on the post (unless they had no cookies, stats blockers etc on). Just becuae 24,000 people buy the magazine you have no idea how many people actually read anything you had printed in it. Anyway - as the mag seems pretty dead for now at least it is not surprising the forum is pretty empty as well. Why would people be going to the forum of a dead magazine? As an experiment try cross posting it to somewhere that has a vibrant online community and how many people see it.
Yeah - you all better be nice to me now! RUUUUUN. |
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| Batmanuel |
Cat Fang
You know what i used to run a quarter / half page add in CI in which i used to offer for sale various such things as Trading Card Sets, the latest Hot Comics, general comics and Silverage Comics, i used to earn more from this quarter page ad in a month than i do from my online shop in a quarter or to be brutally honest, more like a year. and it was all down to targeting the audience, and Dez Skinn had this down to a Tee. you cant knock the guy, he knew how to get results. And i am saying this in a very matter of factual fashion, as i really dont want to give the impression that i am being arsey or condescending. its really hard to depict a tone while typing, emotes help, but believe me when i say that this really is meant in the most friendliest of ways. Besides, i have sold myself as a slave to you, for the Jim Starlin Pic, what more to you what
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| CatFang |
Ok then - that's what I wanted to know.
It definitely sounds like it worked when Dez Skinn was running the show. And you're right - it comes down to targetting. The question is where have all those old CI readers gone now? You mentioned in the original post that you had spoken to Mike Conroy about this on the phone. Did he give you any idea of his plans then? I guess he must have bought the magazine expecting to make money off it? FWIW I didn't think you were being arsey or condescending at all. Also - not only do you have to do my bidding as my slave but what you don't know is that the eyes in the sketch have a special power that allow me to see through them directly and send hypnotic suggestions to whoever looks at them....and you have only gone a posted a scan of it on the internet....soon the world will be MINE.... PS - I have got your last 2 emails but have not been able to answer as we are having trouble with our ISP and can't send out. We really must change from Bulldog they are quite atrocious. |
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| Batmanuel |
CatFag,
That's easy, they are all still coming into the shop asking when the new Comics International is coming and picking up Wizard as a substitute, (Note to Mike Conroy, all is not lost....YET) Unfortunately for me Wizard is an American Magazine 
Cat (the) Fang:
One would have thought so, he brought the mag in order to make a living at the very least. did he give me any idea as to the future of the magazine? well i thought it was going to be business as usual. He did however ignore every single suggestion i made, i know its his magazine, but these suggestions were not radical rocket science you know, it was just simple suggestions as to which columns he should keep and which he should drop, i mean to say he did ask. Quote, there is absolutely no way i will ever reintroduce a movers and shakers section in comics international, un-quote since then i have spoken to a very many of my customers, all of which have said "that was one of my favorite columns" Now if there is and has always been one common denominator in this industry within the mainstream at least, is that what sells well in one shop sells well in all shops. Cat:
Well thank god for that, Slave didn't want Mistress to beat him without mercy, slave didn't
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| Batmanuel |
Double Bubble reply here folks
I thought i would pop over to the old comics international forum and see if i had set their world afire... Nothing except another 7 views, making a total of 60, and no replies. so its official then. Comics International, the once respected and pivotal force in the comics industry is DEAD, stone cold DEAD, as dead as a dead person is when they are really very DEAD. anyone want to view the result themselves can co to www.comicorpsesinterthegroundwearethedeadnational.com and click the cemetery i mean forum link. i mean i not suggesting that you should register and post your views their or anything, i am not suggesting that you should add anything to the thread, whats the point, they are all Fucking Dead...Dead Thread, Threadead, dead. Oh i do hope i am not being too harsh or cruel so is that it? game over?
STOP PRESS... 
It has been reported that the ultimate disaster has struck.... The Skrulls have infiltrated Tracy Island, never fear Comics International is here. which brings me to another topical question, if International Rescue go out and internationally rescue those that may need internationally rescuing. Will Tony "Iron Man" Stark place them under arrest? or are wooden puppets exempt? Just wondering
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| CatFang |
All very strange stuff. Did he give you any reasons for why he did not like your suggestions (and what were they?)
Yeah - to be honest that is the only column I can specifically remember reading, so I guess it must have been the one I liked best. I was hoping that we had an old copy lying around somewhere so I could see what else was in it, but I can't find one. Not really a surprise as I don't tend to keep magazines, but I thought one might have got under the bed or behind the sofa or something - not that we live like savages, of course! Maybe we should all post about what we would like to see in a comics magazine here, and you never know, someone may pick it up. One of things I really like is pieces with creators that really go into depth about their work, their process, their inspirations etc. I got a book called Studio Space as a present recently that does just this with 10 or 12 of the best known artists in comics today. Fascinating stuff - kind of like a "making of" on a dvd. I would also like to see showcases of work from upcoming talent and books that I am unlikely to have heard of - maybe because they are indies/self published or whatever. I got a book of this type as well - edited by Dez Skinn as it happens called Comics Art Now which is well worth a look. You would think that the advantage of doing something like this in a mag would be that at the end of the year they could collect it all up and sell it bound in hard covers on glossy paper as an album which should bring in an extra quid or two. Also coverage of the great diversity of comics from around the world and online, not just the mainstream stuff it is easy to find out about from anywhere. Along these lines you would think that nowadays you could have people writing these columns "on location" so to speak and emailing them in - it is not like everyone has to work in the same office. "Proper" reviews - good meaty ones that go into the story and the art as you would expect from a book review, and less of the 100 word round ups that are just rehashes of solicit text with an x/10 at the end. They should be written by people who like/understand that genre as well - otherwise they are meaningless opinions. Above all, though, I would like the coverage to be written by people who are passionate about the medium - in all its forms and from all periods of its history - not just jaded whining about continuity and how things aren't as great as they used to be. You only have to step into a comics event at the moment to see the incredible boom of creativity that is going on but that experience does not seem to have been reflected in the industry press (or at least the last time I read it). |
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| Batmanuel |
Glad your still aboard Cat.
You bring up some interesting points, such as the fact that you can remember Movers and Shakers, and nothing else from the old CI. Peter David used to to a column for CI too, comic review were generally handled well by CI, you have to remember that a lot of people like short to the point reviews, and thus a new language was born, and in many cases within professional reviews its not so much whats said as to whats not said.
well it has been so infrequent i am not surprised that you cant find one. i however decided that i would keep a copy of the 200th issue (Dez Skinn's last) in the shop for future reference, easy access to industry phone numbers, and because it had a really cool Whatever Comics ad in it that Dez designed for me from nothing more than a few photos and some suggestions on text, but thats another story. i have never kept an issue before, but in the past i have been caught short and needed to refer to it, so this bumper issue seemed to fit that bill, and i still have it, and i have referred to it on many occasions since. and i am so glad that i did.... looking through this issue it amazed me just how good it really was, and the fact is i just started to take it for granted, because every month it was there, some months it was better than others, but it was always there. But here is an example on just how inportant Comics International had become within the industry, i am now going to post a comic cover which has a blurb on the cover, that blurb will be highlighted. 
Now lets take a CLOSE look at that blurb 
so how did a comic news magazine rag costing less than a quid, being produced in the United Kingdom get to be quoted on the cover of one of the BIG If not the biggest comic publisher in the United States of America????, more to the point how did it get there with what can be considered a really cruel comment, even if it was said tongue in cheek? well it sure as hell didn't time travel its way there in a Blue Police Box, or for that matter a Thunderbird, or a great big giant bubble gum bubble, or a bloody horse and cart now did it. it got there because the comic industry respected what Comics International had to say. there is an old saying, it can take years to build a good reputation. but it only takes weeks to get a bad reputation. so its farewell to the now castrated Comics International
Oh and Cat, the reintroduction of Movers and Shakers was one of my suggestions (Dez resurrected this for his last issue) Also retail market reports. which had been done in the past and were very popular. a speculation section (not so much about values, but more a whats hot and whats not.) Oh, and an occasional Blast from the Past, this was to be about seminal, and direction changing comic runs from the past that would and have paved the way for the future, (something i have now incorporated into this very forum) and a HUGE thank you to persons who have so far contributed
Right then, i am off ti the CI forum to see if i can raise the dead 
well that didn't take long, logged off here, logged on to CI, took a look, it was quite a a morgue, not even a coffin dodger in sight, all very dead. logged beck into the WEC forum to post this in about the time it takes to boil an egg. |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
I've just browsed the Comics International website; and I think I see what they're trying to achieve.
I suspect Mike Conroy is trying to move Comics International away from supporting only comics and instead cover topics that are considered more 'cultist' (ie. cult TV - Thunderbirds). In which case, it's not Comics International; it's more a sci-fi/fantasy magazine. I may be wrong but this is my initial impression from looking at a website for the very first time. The forum is more or less dead. We're not exactly Newsarama (thank God); however, there's a fair amount of activity on a weekly basis. To be honest, Batmanuel, I have no idea why you've wasted your time posting there. The forum members of CI are probably all fans of CI (or, even, staff) but do seem to enjoy taking pride in the comic stores that have gone out of business over the last few years. I see why you lost your temper there. They began by making points before degenerating into a 'let's bash the comic retailer' thread. Another thought struck me. I daresay Comics International achieved a readership of 24,000 at its peak; however, the magazine is in decline and perhaps has been for some years now. I very much doubt they're still pulling those numbers. I'm going to scour the net for some sales figures and come back later. Edit - Just ran a Google search for 'comics international sales'... Bats' post came up as the fifth most popular option! |
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| CatFang |
Yeah - I can cling on pretty tight with my sharp little claws
Oh yeah - I remember that as well now. I did also enjoy that one and I always liked the editors letter from Dez Skinn as well. Always well written, often with a healthy dose of controversy - didn't always agree with him but that made it interesting.
Yep - see the point, and I guess this used to be the only place that you could get them. If that is what the majority of readers want then that is how they should do it. You can get little snippety reviews from anywhere now though. Personally I enjoy longer more in depth reviews (as may be apparent from my ramblings the Blast From The Past section!) and I think it is also important to know WHO is saying what as well - and why their opinion on this should matter to me.
Heh - you should scan it and sell it
Did you show us that once? Is it photos of the racks that kind of have a "downward flow" that draw your eyes to the end of the page? If so I didn't realise it was Dez Skinn who made it.
heh - Ok, conceeded.
Really? That was my first thought.
I do wonder how much of the success/perceived authority of the mag was down to Dez Skinn himself and his history/connections with the industry. If so then this I guess it was destined to die when he left in that people respected what he (or the people he chose to employ) had to say - he just happened to be saying it in comics international. What is Dez Skinn up to now? I have a book that came out last year that was edited by him. Do you know why he gave up CI? Can he be tempted/threatened/kidnapped and made to work in a cellar to put out an industry mag/website whatever again? Maybe you could get him to write a monthly /weekly column for the forum here? That would be a catch and no mistake.
Do you mean the sales tables thingies? I always thought they could have been interesting but that as the same things were always in the top 10 they were not worth reading every month - but then I don't have a shop. The best thing I learnt from them is that more people downloaded and read Extinction Protocol in a month than read most of the Vertigo titles
Ah - it's all coming back to me now. We should have a section for this on the forum then, as no one else is doing it.
Why not copy and paste the blasts into a new section on the main site like you have for reviews?
Just had a look over there - guess you need to level up quite a bit in necromancy before you are going to see any life there. That is one rubbish forum. I can't believe the tiny number of responses to posts - and none of them from the "management" - especially the pleas for info on the release schedule - these are people TRYING TO BUY THEIR MAGAZINE - TO ACTUALLY GIVE THEM MONEY!!!!! and they still don't answer
You could be right. Although I don't know why he would be doing that as there are already a lot of those kinds of mags about.
Yeah - strange stuff there. If you don't like a shop don't go to it. I do find that a lot of comics readers are strangely self destructive like this - like they want everything to die just so they can moan about it.
I see that CI has no Advertisers Kit on its site which is where you usually find such stuff. There is a thing called ABC (audit bureau of circulations) that holds/ monitors readership figures for mags to ensure advertisers are not overcharged - but from the looks of other things I would not be surprised if CI is not registered. Anyway - over at the Geek Syndicate podcast they were asking for suggesting of topics to cover in up coming episodes so I posted a link to this thread with a note about what we have been talking out - so maybe it will get some airtime and discussion on that forum as well. |
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| Batmanuel |
CatFang
You know what, i was thinking on these very lines, after reading the From hell post. it accrued to me that is is by far to good to be just floating about on the "award nominated whatevercomics forum"
so by Jove i may... no i will indeed do just as you suggest, thank you. full credit will of course be given with unabated glee
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| CatFang |
You old charmer
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| Batmanuel |
Tell you what, i was looking through the last real issue of Comics International last night, #200 anniversary, and was looking at the letters page, the names held within really are an indication on just how well respected this little British Comics new mag really was.
also reading through it it also made me realise just how good the mag could be when it was firing on all cylinders. i may post a list of the names some time later. I'm only on briefly at the moment
but i do intend on elaborating |
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| CatFang |
Today I saw [url=http://downthetubescomics.blogspot.com/2008/08/comics-international-r[/url]eturns-to-action.html]this on Downthetubes.
It says that CI will be back on the stands with 206 - a special 116 page issue. I wonder what it will be like? |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
Shit on paper...?
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| CatFang |
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| Batmanuel |
I am a tad annoyed that i only got three days notice that this issue was being published. so the new shop details wont be included in this issue as this part of the mag had already gone to press.
No deadline copy submission date, no nothing, (Mind you this was an improvement on the last issue, the only notice i had on that one was when i received the advert invoice though the post) how difficult cant it be to send an email a month before you intend to publish and ask, is there any changes that you would like to make to your ad? I mean, there is shipping late, and shipping late, but even the firm sale comic industry has to resolicit when its that late. Sheesh, thats just so fucking arrogant to assume that after not publishing for so long, and to ignore a question asking what has happened on the CI forum, that i should drop everything and go WOW here's my money, even if the ad you have published is completely wrong, A question, am i being a bit harsh, Waffle, you work for a publishing company, how on earth do you manage to publish and keep all of your advertisers happy on a weekly basis? do me a favor and let CI in on the secret, Purely on a personal note, what a fucking wasted opportunity. Seriously folks, i need your feedback on this, as it may have been suggested that i might be burning bridges. So what if anything do you think? am i being unreasonable? |
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| CatFang |
I also work for a publishing company so I can tell you that for print ads (obviously web ads can be just be changed immediately) with a rolling advertiser there is an account manager for each publication who contacts the client a set time prior to press deadlines (depends if it is weekly, monthly or quarterly) to check the ad being run is still the one they want, and gives the deadline for new creative.
If it is something like change of address for any of our directory listings they can either contact us, or there is a simple online form they just fill out and that feeds to the directory print file so it is always up to date. In case people forget to do this there is a button on the website for users to alert us if they think the details are out of date so the client can be contacted to check. Also we contact all the advertisers on a regular schedule (I think quarterly for most directories) to tell them what details we have for them, and remind them how to update. Seems simple, really. |
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| Batmanuel |
Apparentally Comics International have indeed published a new issue, which i have been reliably informed is in fact an old issue, no not a reprint, its just that all of the news is old news, so it may as well have been.
I only know this because i have received an invoice though the post for an advert i hadn't booked, has the incorrect information on it, and is overpriced by any stretch of the imagination, only thing is that i have been told that this rag has been seen on stands, but it isn't in my comic shop. Let me have a little think here, the clue is in the title, Comics.... Shouldn't it be found in Comic Shops? is Whatever Comics not a Comic Shop which is celebrating near twenty years in the industry? Mind you, i only know of two people who have seen it, and one of those received a complimentary copy through the post. nice to see that Mike acually remembered to send at least one copy out, I would also be interested in what the actual circulation figures for this issue were. |
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