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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
The Amazing Spider-ManIt's been far too long since we created a thread concerning one particular argument, one that can actually sustain a debate. The last one concerned Tony Stark (and, yes, I still believe I was right despite Marvel's present direction), and, in order to prevent the Casual Comic Talk thread from being seriously de-railed, I wanted to offer up a Spider-Man thread - so I can once again fight you all in Civil War 2 - Return Of The Boy Wonder. Or, something to that effect anyway.Before I begin my rant, I would like to point out that I am loving the present Amazing Spider-Man and its current direction. In the Casual Comic Talk thread, Batmanuel made the following comments concerning Amazing Spider-Man 600: The Amazing Spider-Man #600, picked it up as i am such a sucker for those all new no reprint giant size anniversary issues, and besides i haven't really read Spider-Man properly since the overindulgent debauchery which was Brand New Day. Oh sure i read the first couple of arcs just so see if it could be worse than i suspected and in this it didn't disappoint, and that dialogue, "oh no! Aunt Mays in Danger" "oh no! may web fluid has run out" "curses! its Spider-Man foiling our dastardly deeds" "in another life" i think by now you have the picture, also in a wizard pole 74% of comic book readers assembled seemed to agree. BND was shit. But one cant hold a grudge forever its not healthy, and it has been awhile so now that the dust settled maybe it might be OK, so off home i went with my copy. Nothing could have prepared me for what was to come.... Aunt May is getting Married to...wait for it... J J JAMESON'S FATHER!!! "And Mayor or not you are not to big that i wont put you over my knee" he informs his son? Since when did JJJ have a dad? i never ever remember him ever being mentioned, and i have read a lot of Spider-Man comics in my time. and Aunt May marring him make Peter Parker family to the Jameson's that just wrong on so many levels' Besides every one know that JJJ wasn't born, well not in the conventional sense anyway. Some say that he is the illegitimate son of Hitlers Moustache and a rampant red neck, all we know is that he is JJJ. so apart from this revelation was the rest of the comic any good. No! It gets worse, yes worse, when Aunt May throws her bouquet and guess who catches it? Yes Its Mary Jane Watson traveling with her Aunt as the plus one, i was taking a drink of coffee at the time and nearly bulked it out over everything within target radiance. Christ this is one awful comic. I was all for giving Spider-Man a second chance with this issue, but i feel kind of sorry for him, i know he is only a fictional character but even so talk about being taken for a ride, i would like to see an issue where Parker goes on Strike as says, thats it, no more Spider-Man, not until you start treating me with a bit of respect. Saddest thing is that with Spider Man you were always guaranteed a good read. Not so now it seems. My response follows... |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
Re: The Amazing Spider-Man
As humourous as your post is, I can't help but feel that May's relationship with Jameson Sr. is one of the better plots she's been involved with over the years. It's possibly her most important advancement as a character since her then-discovery that her nephew is Spider-Man. Over the last six months, May has been thorough re-invigorated as a character and this is largely due to Jay's arrival in her life. We see how their whirlwind romance has affected the two of them, both confronting their past, and also how their relationship affects Peter and Jonah. So far, it's all been very jovial, but I think there is a lot of potential by now offering a father figure to Peter and also by drawing Peter and Jonah together again (after the two hadn't really had anything to do together since... well, before JMS, I think). You could say the marriage between May & Jay has added further layers to three long-lasting characters, and drawn them together for the first time in a long, long time. That has to be a good thing, surely.
This was quite a good moment. We've been waiting for Mary Jane to properly return since her cameo appearance last year and this now gives us the opportunity to explore what happened after One More Day (marriage or no marriage, they still had to separate for one reason or another), and also how they still feel toward each other now.
In my opinion, The Amazing Spider-Man has been a consistently good read since ASM 575, and the return of Hammerhead. Since then, I think there's only been one or two issues where I felt I'd read an average issue. Amazing Spider-Man 600 is no exception. This is strong piece, with good plotting and an excellent script from Dan Slott, not to mention the excellent art from both John Romita Jr. & Klaus Janson. The story with Doctor Octopus was engaging, and a powerful advancement of character. I was very surprised to see what they did with Octopus, but after a recent number of writers handled the character as a buffoon, it was nice to see someone attempt something so bold with the character. The sub-plot with the wedding was nicely padded, as was the advancement within both Peter's long-term and recently-added supporting cast. There was also an exceptional nod to Spider-Man's association with both the Avengers and Fantastic Four, not to mention a stern lesson from Daredevil about the dangers of unmasking. I'm sorry, Bats, but I could not see what there is to dislike about this issue. This was the latest in a string of well-told stories; I've already told you I felt American Son was the best Spider-Man story since JMS' very first on Amazing, way back when in 2001. Spider-Man is a must-read every month for me right now. I came close to quitting last year on a couple of occasions. The first immediately followed One More Day, the other came mid-way through the year when I began to reflect upon the cost of buying Spidey three times a month had on my reading other titles. I'm glad I kept the faith with Spidey. Whew. Rant over. Looking forward to the replies. Vive la Stark! Oh, that was last year... Up The Spidey! |
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| Reaper |
I think I read #601 and while it wasn't as bad as some of the issues they released last year it wasn't fantastic. I think for me still, it feels like the story has taken a step backwards and I'm still bitter about 'One More Day'. It seems very strange to be bitter towards a comic but there you are, I'm a weird person it seems. However I do feel that Mary Jane receiving the bouquet is a bit of a slap in the face to readers who were pissed at the 'divorce' and I believe Marvel should be a little more careful with their disenfranchised readers.
Also it almost comes across with this JJJ fathers marriage to Aunt May that the editors are running out of ideas and just seeing what crazy random stuff they can chuck together to get a story, random ideas in a bag picked at random almost..... WB Boy Wonder |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
Thanks Reaper. 
I see your point concerning Mary Jane's catching the bouquet. Personally, I don't have a problem with it (although I reconciled myself to the fact the marriage was a lost cause when One More Day began); however, for those who were unhappy with the ending of the Spider-marriage, it can easily be seen as a slap in the face. In hindsight, these face-slaps (for lack of a better term) always seem to come whenever Dan Slott is writing. For example, the opening panel of Brand New Day (by Slott) features Peter receiving a kiss from a random girl, something Marvel could not 'safely' do during the marriage era. A few months later, when MJ cameos with her Hollywood boyfriend, it's once again Slott who is writing. So maybe you have a very good point there. Maybe. 
I'm enjoying the storyline between May and JJJ Sr. It doesn't feel that random (I think the intention was always to run with this at the start of BND), but then my perspective is also coloured by the fact I'm enjoying Spider-Man at present. And no, it's not strange to be bitter toward a comic. One More Day began as a reasonable story with some potential, but that ending was really very bad indeed. The final chapter was easily one of the worst stories I've ever had the misfortune to read and I was disappointed to see Marvel acutally execute the marriage once and for all. |
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| Reaper |
It's interesting that they've suddenly followed the line of breaking Parker and Mary-Jane up in Utimate Spider-Man now. I'm wondering how that actually transpired and if it will incur the same amount of backlash via the tinterwebs.
Maybe people will form a good old fashioned lynch mob and go find Joe Q |
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| Batmanuel |
First off welcome back Boy Wonder, i now have a worthy adversary to taunt... Bwa ha ha 
Second off, i haven't posted for a while simply because its been so busy in the shop i have been coming home and flaking out, although its great fun to post on a busy forum, a busy forum doesn't pay the bills as well as a busy shop, so my apologies for not being as active as i should have. Thank you for reading my comments on Spider-Man 600 and for taking the time to reply, also for seeing the humor in the post as apposed to taking the offensive. So where do i go from here... hang on, oh that's it re read you comments, i will be back in a sec. Boy Wonder:
so this is one of the better plots? which you are seriously comparing to the JMS plot where... Boy Wonder:
OK.... Boy Wonder:
First of i didn't realise that the Marriage was a dead loss, it was only terminated because of some sort of suited and booted shareholder policy which wanted to return to the days where Peter was a wimp who lived with his Aunt but was secretly not a wimp at all and was in fact The Amazing Spider-man. Only problem with this is that peter is not 17 years old anymore, and in doing this they turned him into the 40 year old virgin who lives at home with his Aunt who it seems is getting more action than he is. See my Blog for other views on the 40 year old virgin subject I only hated the bouquet catching thing because it reeked as bad as a chick flick, i wouldn't pay money to see a chick flick and i sure as hell don't wont to see one of my favorite Marvel heroes being reduced to this level. I didn't see it as a slap in the face, if it was a slap i must of ducked and missed it, unfortunately Peter couldn't. Poor Peter 
Oh and i don't want to see Aunt May invigorated, thank you very much, i want to see Spider-Man invigorated
I agree that the Doc Ock story had a good angle, it never occurred to me that with no actual super strength or powers, being punched out bu super humans must be like being involved in a car crash, i liked this angle, it showed intelligence and foresight, and its why i fell in love with Marvel Comics in the first place in which the earliest issue i read was in fact a cave drawing 
thought i get that in before some other clever fucker does
to sum up as its getting late and i have completely forgotten the point of this reply i am going out on a quote from... Reaper:
I do believe that after all said and done this here lad has a point and indeed shows a wisdom beyond his years. Oh and i have just remembered the point to this reply was to welcome back Side Kick supreme The Boy Wonder
PS if i dont reply straight away bear with me, so much to do, so little time. |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
I've been away on holiday the past week so can only spare a brief glance before I resume the ritual of cleaning and general tidy-up (after dinner, of course). Despite this, I couldn't resist having a quick peek at what Bats wrote, and found this little tidbit that caught my eye...
There is a very long history concerning Peter Parker's marriage to Mary Jane and its evental devolution, which I will go into some detail later. All I will say is that the change was not the responsbility of a suited-and-booted shareholder. The change was largely instigated by Joe Quesada, with the marriage being one of his now-infamous genies. Essentially, Marvel has been trying to undo the marriage for years, and made two very concerted efforts in doing so before Quesada later enforced the issue. The first came with the Clone Saga (involving a then-mooted idea involving Mephisto, incidentally). The next effort came with Howard Mackie & John Byrne's relaunch. Both actually succeeded in undoing the marriage in print until the decision was later reversed. I will go into some detail later, although I don't expect it to change your opinion. It didn't change mine, but then I really like the present state of affairs with a single Peter Parker. |
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| Batmanuel |
in some ways i am glad for you that you still enjoy reading Spider-man comics, myself and many others do not,
i find the storytelling childish and banal. I do however think that i have put my finger one exactly why i dot like it. Its like returning the Dark Knight to the gay sixties and bat repellent spray, Batman in the sixties worked well for that time period and belongs in that period. in a similar case the Spider-man Stories of the sixties worked well for that period and belong firmly in the past. Current Spider-man stories try badly to mirror these older tales which should stay relegated to the past. its like asking Nightwing to dress up as The Boy Wonder, if you catch my drift
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
I really don't see that Spider-Man has a 'swinging sixties' feel to it at the moment. I also don't have the impression that the current stories are trying to mimic these.
Amazing Spider-Man has been a solid read since last October and, during that time, has breathed fresh life into a number of characters and concepts. Hammerhead, once a laughable reject of a villain, was rejuvenated into a spine-chilling character, one who just didn't give a damn who was in his path, and, crucially, without that 30's gangster accent. Menace has proven to be a genuine revelation and has taken a strikingly different direction to Goblins past. The girl beneath the mask (if we can call it that) is very sane... and now very pregnant with Norman's child. Aunt May has been given an actual plot. It's actually quite nice to see the woman get some. In a twisted way, that is. Her marrying another man, regardless of who that man may be, is her most serious plot advancement in eight years. Despite even my initial reservations to the contrary (I wanted her dead after Civil War), she is a fundamental element to Peter Parker's life. The quality of done-in-one stories has improved immensely. From Zeb Wells' excellent Punisher team-up, to Roger Stern's continuity-laden story (evoking his previous run on West Coast Avengers), to Fred Van Lente's oh-so-superior spotlight on The Spot, the done-in-one almost feels like a genuine event now. And that's without mentioning No 600! American Son. Easily the finest Spider-Man storyline since JMS' initial story arc in Amazing Spider-Man eight years ago. A story that significantly progresses both Norman and Harry Osborn, a story that saw Harry rise up against his father when faced with the turmoil of his own life, a story that saw Spider-Man thoroughly beaten by The Thunderbolts and yet still doing everything to protect his friend against insurmountable odds. A true Spider-Man tale in every sense of the word, offering the very finest qualities of our able web-slinger. None of this, in my opinion, feels like it's evoked the sixties Spider-Man. There was a case at the beginning of Brand New Day that, perhaps, the writers were attempting to evoke the Spider-Man stories from the 80's (Spidey's second Golden Age of story-telling, following Stan 'n' Steve's first 20 issues), although this has since evolved into a very modern story. If anything, I feel Marvel are attempting to offer an iconic interpretation of Spider-Man. The single bachelor that is Peter Parker, a strong supporting cast, good story-telling and dramatic use of the rogues has offered a very timeless slant to Spider-Man. I'm really very sorry that it's not to your taste. I could not disagree with you more though, and I wish that you could see the comic through my eyes. I'm loving Spider-Man right now and it's up there with Iron Man and Dark Avengers right now for my monthly must-reads. Still, I live in hope that a story will be told that will change your opinion. And, in the meantime, I'm going to bang the drum for Spidey as loudly as possible!
I'll lecture on the demise of the marriage another evening. If you still want me to waffle on relentlessly, that is! 
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| Batmanuel |
Ok, i am going to agree to disagree because we could end up repeating ourselves over and over and over and over again,
i do feel that you may be pushing the envelope a bit comparing it to the current Invincible Iron Man and the Dark Avengers of which both titles continue to feel the full implications of both The Civil War and The Secret Invasion, no magic one more day for Tony Stark who now has to deal with the full implications of his mistakes, also the sixties reference to Spider-Man was put purely as in the fact that Peter is single and living with his aunt (even if he isn’t 17 anymore) rather than an actual swinging sixties far out man feel, the current stories do tend to mirror what happened rather that what’s happening in the real MU, Peter living with Aunt, Harry Osborn in the fray, Norman Osborn after his blood, Mary Jane after his underwear, all we need now is a blond bombshell to make an uncomfortable threes a crowd to complete the scenario. But never the less i do agree to disagree and so with that i want to bring up a point that Xeall brought to my attention the other day and although he has been absent from life as we know it as in this forum the shop and comics in general I felt it was valid and that I would voice it, also it ties in very nicely to this Spider-Man thread as it is about Spider-Man. We now enter into the What if universe… what if Mephisto had been foiled by Dr. Strange ? And the one more day failed, Aunt May had died and Peter continued to be on the run? being on the run results in the break up of Peter and Mary, the strain just being to much for her and with the help of the good Doctor and his magic she goes into hiding and seems to vanish off the face of the earth, Norman Osborn is where he is now and is obsessed with Spider-Man, after all he now knows who he is, frustrated that he cannot find anyone that Peter cares for to flush him out (Mays Dead, and MJ has disappeared) drives Norman to and beyond obsession. Now here’s the clever bit that Xeall threw in, Both Peter Parker and Tony Stark become strange bed fellows and aid each other in avoiding Osborn and his dark Avengers, Spider-Man also becomes a prominent part of the worlds most wanted story line with an Iron Man and Spider-Man crossover. You got to admit that’s a story waiting to be told, but wont be because Peter Parker is currently living a lie. it’s a Spider-Man thread and this is about Spider-Man and I am trying to bring in debate as to what could have been rather that what is. We could harp on about how right I am, (which I am) or how right you are (which you are)….not but at the end of the day, lets get back to Spider-Man. |
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