| Archive for Whatever Comics Forum for Whatevercomics.co.uk Discuss comics. Air your points of view. Fun for all the family! |
| waffle |
teen titansanother week another announcement about a franchise that the general moviegoing public don't care about:http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=20754 |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
Sounds interesting and the premise would have serious potential with the non-comic-book-reading public if these characters had more mainstream attention (beyond Robin, of course).
I also cannot help but wonder if the mainstream public would be more interested in seeing the heroes with whom the Titans are associated with (Flash, Wonder Woman) rather than the sidekicks themselves. I can't help but admire DC for pumping out some of their lesser properties (and in the eyes of the mainstream, Titans is a lesser property) ahead of the bigger guns (including those, like Wonder Woman, who are in development hell) but, to make a mainstream audience more aware of these lesser properties, should they not concentrate their efforts more on the bigger-name characters first? Sure, Titans has an in-built audience from the cartoon, you may argue, but then that begs the question of how familiar the movie Titans would be to their cartoon brethren. That cartoon audience would feel alienated pretty quickly if the movie used entirely different characters and felt, well, more teenage or adult. Let's see Wonder Woman. Let's see Flash, Green Lantern. Hell, a Green Arrow film could work reasonably well. Let's see these films first before DC offer us Titans and Metal Men. Like Waffle says above, another comic book movie announcement that the general movie-going public isn't going to care about. |
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| kingmouse |
Gotta agree, Titans are sidekicks not heroes in their own right. Spiderman and X-Men are the comics about teenagers who try to learn to deal with their powers, Titans is about teenage heroes who are trying to deal with living in the shadow of bigger heroes. They only work in the context of the larger DCU.
I can see it being a really aweful Buffy esque teen angst movie...kind the OC in capes. I'm not sure about trying to put it in the same vain as Batman/Watchmen either, some comics are meant to be dark and some really aren't. |
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| Guest |
Sorry to disagree with Mr DC - but the Titans are heros in their own right and can exsist outside the DC U.
This has been more than proven with the Teen Titans Go cartoon, which while featuring truly horrible manga style animation had some excellent stories and managed to introduce and grow both the Titans and their rouges without referance to the larger DC U. (except for one episode where Robin runs across the roof of a builing called Wayne Enterprises - but that was it!) Although i can not stress enough how much I hated some of the animation styles the stories reaslly are as good as anything Batman the Animated series, or Jla/JlA Unlimited came up with. Although Marvel may rule at the movies, DC have the best animation! |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
The success of the cartoon does not translate to a successful movie; they're likely going to be two completely separate things.
I would say that they can exist outside the DCU but not as a mainstream movie property that would be successfully commercially viable in the same way that other succesful comic movies have. For Titans to work, I think DC need more of their bigger-name characters enjoying successful movies and thereby pulling audiences in and drawing their attention to their comic book world. They need to do more than just Superman and Batman (and, let's face it, Superman wasn't the success it should have been). |
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| Guest |
I am not relating the sucsess of the cartoon to the sucsess of the movie.
All i am saying is it can be done and it can be done with out anyone knowing the rest of the DCU. The titans cartoon introduced to the majority of people, Raven, Beast Boy, Starfire, Cyborg, Terra, Deathstoke and a whole lot more besides. It was done with out the mention of ANY mentors or other heros. The only chcaracter most people were familier with is Robin - and as the biggest exposure to Robin probably STILL comes form the 60's Batman TV show - well they were probably quite shocked by the direction the character has taken! |
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| waffle |
The cartoon introduced these characters to people who watched the cartoon, but that is by no way something on which the potential success of the film should be judged. I'm sure plenty of kids watched it, but kids will watch most stuff. Even as someone who (now) buys comics every week, what I know about the Teen Titans could be written on the back of Jeremy Beadle's hand. If a superhero film is going to grab the general public and make a serious amount of money, then it needs to have recognisable characters. Batman, superman, spider-man, x-men mean something to pretty much everyone, comic fans or not. Daredevil is not on the same level, and its no surprise that the film was not hugely successful. Same deal with Elektra. I suppose Hulk is the anomaly here. Very familar, not hugely successful. However, that a remake is being made would suggest that, although it isn't as loved as Spidey, it made enough to make the process worthwhile. I suppose my argument is: is sounds like a daft idea, and should probably remain in development hell. |
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| Guest |
Which explains why 300 X-Men and Sin City bombed so badly, cos no one had heard of them outside of hardcore comic fans....
... wait a sec!!! I am sorry but your arguments are redundent. Dont forget - 10 years ago no one outside comics knew who the X-Men were... If a film is well made with a good story line/effects/imagary ANY character can become a sucessful franchise. My kids know who the Titans are. Their friends know who the Titans are. They ask me to get them Titan comics every now and then. So if the film is aimed at kids there is a target audiance and if it is aimed at adults and is well made, then it doesn't matter. Your arguments are based on 10 years ago when if a film was based on a comic people would immediatly expect it to be crap. Today - people will give it a chance. Oh and when I said that the cartoon introduced characters I ment before the cartoon no one - kid or othewise - who didn't read DC comics had heard of the Titans. The cartoon introduced all the main characters quite quickly but still gave them a rich back story with out having to mention other DCU characters. Robin in Titans Go is a strong enough character that you do not need to know that he is Batmans sidekick. Indeed in the cartoon he is not! |
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| waffle |
It's cool that your younglings are into Teen Titans, but let's not forget that their dad works in a comic book shop!
Also, X-Men were massive outside of the comic world thanks to the successful cartoon series, which was doing the business around 15 years ago. 300 and Sin City are not overtly comic book films. A general punter would be hard pushed to look at their trailers and conclude that they stem from comics. With Teen Titans, the same is not true. However, I agree to an extent with you on that notion that with a good storyline/effects/imagery any character can become a successful franchise. But, the point I was attempting to make was that, given the massive amounts of money these films are expected to make if they are going to turn a profit, going with B-list characters is not the best way to achieve this. |
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| Guest |
Sorry, obviously didn't make my point clear enough. I wouldn't watch Titans Go cos I disliked the animation style so much. It wasn't until my kids watched it that I realised how good the stories are! And their friends Dads, do not work in comic shops....
I think you will be suprised at how sucessful the Titans cartoon is. We have more people coming in to the shop buying the Titans Go comic than we have ever had buying Animated X-Men merchandise.
True. BUT they are advertised as "The lastest comic book movie adaption" or Based on the Graphic novel by..." If you asked members of the general public who had seen the films are these based on a comic - most would say "Yes". And the point is more that the publics perseption of "comic book movies" has changed, presisly becasue of films like Sin City, 300, Road to Perdition, Hellboy etc etc.
Oh agreed. But everyone is at best B list until they get "discovered"..... |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
Erm... in a word, no. As you work in a comic shop, that's the view you're getting but you really need to move beyond the confines of the shop to see how these movies are perceived. Sin City, 300 and Hellboy never hid their comic book roots. The former two often had 'Based on the graphic novel by Frank Miller' thrown into the advertising somewhere but it wasn't the prominent part of the advertising and, in no way, has opened the mainstream audience's eyes to the comic book world. Sin City is a glorious movie but, had there been no comic book behind the movie, it sitll would've enjoyed success in the way that a cult film can. Sin City is ultimately regarded as a very good cult movie and an excellent example of the genre. Mainstream audiences enjoyed it but not because it was adapted from a comic book. It was because of the fact it was a damned good film and very slickly made. Hell, it looked different - a big selling point for any film. 300 sells itself as a historical war movie first and foremost. In my experience, very few people know or care that it's adapted from a comic book. They're more concerned with the fact it's an historical war movie and therefore suits their own movie-going tastes. Interesting you use Hellboy as an example as his visuals mark him out to the mainstream audience as a comic book character. The film didn't perform as well as many other comic book movies but made enough to make a profit and spawn a probable sequel. As for Road to Perdition - no one, and I mean no one but the most avid comic book diehard, would know it was adapted from a comic book. The film sells itself without ever having to draw upon its comic book roots. The same applies to A History of Violence, incidentally. You say that the public's perception of comic book movies have changed but I would then ask how many of said public is even aware that these films came from comic books? The general public sees a super hero movie like Spider-Man as a comic book movie, not Road to Perdition. In the US, a small TV program that you may have heard of has done more in promoting the comic book industry than any of the examples you've given above. It's performed beyond all expectations and has surprised the audience with its strong storytelling and compelling characterisation. Good acting and direction hasn't hurt either. The program I'm referring to...? Heroes. As for Titans... it's another Catwoman for Warner Bros if you ask me. |
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| Reaper |
Have to agree with Boy Wonder on the Road to Perdition, Hellboy and History of Violence. I personally didn't realise Perdition or Violence were comics until I found a reference online somewhere. Hellboy(Sequel in production btw) I did know but for the most part it wasn't hyped or promoted upon.
And Teen Titans could well be Catwoman 2008.... though if its that bad the director needs a bullet between the eyes |
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| Guest |
Erm... in a word yes. I am not referring to people who come in the shop - or at least i wasn't - I will do in a sec now you mention it though. I was refering to the people who live on my council estate. The groups of kids that were likley to beat up anyone they though was a "comic geek" are now the onces watching the films. And talking about them. And telling me how cool they are. And I don't remember saying that the comic roots of the books were advertised in a prominante way. i just meant that they are known and accepted. A film is no longer expected to be crap because of links to the comic world. And for the record, Jonathon Ross always mentions the comic conection of a film on Film 2000 and whatever. Both Sin City and 300 sold the comics they were based on in an unpresidented way. Was it because the content was different to what people were expecting from a comic? Yes. But they are still comic book films and that fact HAS changed the way comics are percieved. Indeed it started before that with Batman Begins. Lots of people comented on that film as a darky, more gritty and realistic comic film. And as for working in the shop? Well theres your proof. You see up until recently the majority of people who used a comic shop were "hardcore" fans. People who had always brought and would always buy a certain comic. Along with your students etc. Now however you get members of the public buying graphic novels instead of going to Waterstones and buying the latest Stephen King. People who have heard of certain books and are intregied enough to try them. this has happened more and more within the last 5 years. Before that it would happen maybe 2 or three times a year. If someone heard that a comic was good they would just dismiss it as an inferior art form. Hell, graphic novels now get reviewed in publications like the New York Times and the Independent. If thats not a change in perception I don't know what is. Oh and for the record. The second ever person (after Manny no less) to discuss with me that Road To Perdition was a film based on a graphic novel was a teenager from the estate. Turns out when you hire a film and have no money you read all the credits. Even if you have not read a comic since you were seven..... Just because people do not buy a monthly comic it no longer means that they look down upon those who do. |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
Let's go back to the question you posed earlier.
If you asked members of the general public who had seen the films are these based on a comic - most would say "Yes". When referring to films like Road to Perdition, A History of Violence and, albeit to a lesser extent, Sin City & 300, most will still say No (there will be more who will say Yes if you asked specifically to the latter two but not, I think, a majority). I'm aware that the general public is more receptive to comic books now. They're no longer dismissed by all as kiddie books but that's more down to films like Spider-Man, Batman Begins and X-Men rather than those named above, particularly the first two. Here's what I've noticed. Movie studios are no longer hiding the fact that these films are derived from comic books (graphic fiction sounds better). Sin City and 300 are good points to that as both overtly advertised their comic book connections but the success of either film had more to do with the film finding an audience than relying upon their comic book connections. The cool factor that comes into play with comics has less to do with those films (Sin City & 300) than you're giving them credit for although they have helped the cause. X-Men began the good work back in 2000 and Spider-Man helped to solidify that. The annual release of at least one super hero movie has helped fuel the cause even further. Why? Because audiences no longer see the super hero set as just 'good guys fight the bad guys in brightly coloured yellow spandex'. They see fully articulated and realised characters on screen who they can empathise with. They see and are drawn into compelling storylines. I get the impression that Spider-Man and Batman have achieved more in this realm than any other character. The fights are then a CGI sensation of uber-cool. The super hero films are what is promoting the comic book cause more than anything else. Sin City and 300 are superior films (although not seen the latter - I just have a lot of faith in Frank Miller) but both would have succeeded anyway had they, the films, been exactly what they were, without drawing upon a comic book as its source material (I'm saying here: 'What if there was no comic book source?'). They succeeded because they looked and felt different to what was out there. Superior acting, superior direction. And a twist on every other plain film you see at the multiplex. Just so you're aware, I'm disagreeing with the text I highlighted in my earlier post because I just don't see what you said as the case. I'm pleased to see that someone on your estate recognised Road to Perdition as a comic book movie, but I've spoken to a lot of people at work who liked the film - and they had no idea it came from a comic book. Perhaps it has more to do with who we're associated with outside of the comic book world and that, in turn, then reflects the differing opinions we're giving? I'm sure you are aware that Jonathan Ross is a comic book enthusiast - he promoted Ultimates on his chat show once just because he happened to refer to it in an interview that had absolutely nothing to do with comics. I'm not saying that the films you're referring to aren't changing the industry but they're doing so in a far smaller way than you seem to think you are. Credit the bigger films named above (Spider-Man, X-Men, Batman Begins) for doing that. |
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| Guest |
I have yet to meet one person from any back ground that has seen either of these films and is not aware that they are based on graphic novels. Hell, even my Dad, who hasn't seen 300 and couldn't be more - Comics are for kids - Its only a piece of paper - type person and who has not yet seen 300 knows its from a graphic novel and even expressed a reluctent interest at reading it. This anouncment is a bit like the Queen anouncing in her Christmas speech that she is bi sexual and will be holding a "every one is welcome gang bang" at buck palace on new years eve!!! (CALM DOWN REAPER - its an example, not actually happening!!!!) And I think we need to straghten a few things up. I agree that X-Men, Spider-man etc has shown the world that films based on comics can be good. And made loads of money because of it. However Sin City, 300 etc have shown people that Comics are not just about super heroes for kids.
Thats the whole point. He never misses an opertunity to talk about comics and always refers to comic links when they are there. So, as long as he mentioned Road to Perditian, history of Violence (and I seem to remember him doing so) etc,etc he would have said something along the lines of "based on the comic/graphic novel of the same name". Now, not everyone will remember that, however subconsisly (god i really can not spell!!) they will be aware that although it is a comic it is not a spandex type thing. this WILL alter their peception on comics and comic book films. So, back to the original point. When going to see a film based on a comic book, people will no longer be expecting a super hero slugfest. And even if thats what they get, they will gove it a chance to see if it's any good before dimissing it. I would hope that the studios havve seen how sucsessful adaptions that stay faithful to their roots are (I live in hope) and would not choose to do another "Catwomen" to one of their properties. As Teen Titans have some very, very, very good stories to draw a upon I submit that this could be a cracking film that far exceeds expectations. |
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
And I have yet to meet one person, besides the obvious (you, Manny), who is aware that Road to Perdition and A History of Violence are sourced from comics. They're more aware about Sin City and 300... but that's because I've told them! Like I said in my previous post, it could have something to do with who we socialise with. The people I work with are generally unaware of these kinds of things and are more into soaps and Big Brother; the friends I have away from all things comics usually rely on me to tell them these things.
Well, my expectations are so low right now that it can only exceed them. It all depends on how they approach the project. If they go with the sidekicks notion, the film will fall flat on its face as any mainstream audience are more likely to be interested in the heroes from which they're derived rather than the juniors; if it's anything similar to the cartoon, it may work. I just wish Warner Bros would do more work in finding movies for DC's bigger characters rather than focus on some of the more obscure ones (I mean, Metal Men. Come on, the Warner Bros execs musta been stoned that day!). So, does this mean we've kissed and made up...? Or should we find something else to argue about now...? 
Like... bet The Queen's really bi-sexual! |
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| Guest |
We don't need to kiss and make up.
I am right!!! Check this out if you have not already seen it See - based on the Graphic novel right across the poster! Thats a film from Sony about Vampires by the way. Now there is no way that would have been advertised like that 10 or even 5 years ago - indeed they would have tried to distance themselves from the source as much as possible. "No Vampire fan is going to want to know they are watching a movie about a comic!!" But like I said - the publics perseption of comics has changed so now its ok..... Checkmate good sir! Ps Advise time. Stop working with idiots!!! 
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| Robin The Boy Wonder |
So, because of one poster, you declare you're right.
And you are. But only to a certain extent. Since our last posts concerned public awareness with whom we socialise with (beyond each other), I'm not accepting your checkmate until after the film is released. At which point, I will ask if they were aware of the original source. Then, and only then, will I concede... although, by then, we will have had a Fantastic Four movie in addition to Spider-Man. Movie buffs, comic fans and web geeks will know of the source material but I'm talking about an audience that doesn't fall into any of those categories. Your average movie-goer who goes to the cinema because the film in question is about vampires rather than 'Oh, it's been adapted from a comic book, I must see that!'. Overall awareness of the comic industry is increasing, granted, but still not at the levels you're speaking for nor entirely for the reasons you're stating. But I've gone into this already and I really can't be bothered anymore (I need to get back to work, for starters). More is still needed though. We shouldn't start taking for granted this increased mainstream perception of the comic industry; if anything, we now need to work harder to maintain our overall current exceptional quality to those who've been drawn in and to attract even greater audiences. One poster does not change the perception of an industry. It's a small part of a far larger puzzle that is drawing inexorably nearer to its solution. |
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