Spider-Man's Brand New Day: It's not that bad really...
I'm currently in the process of reading March's Amazing Spider-Man issues (552-554 by Bob Gale & Phil Jimenez). It's Month Three of Brand New Day and it's been three full months now since Peter & Mary Jane's marriage came to an abrupt end in One More Day.
After One More Day, I was very unhappy. Seriously unhappy. I've been reading Spider-Man since the early 90's. I've read some classic Spider-Man (Straczynski's first seven issues), some good Spider-Man (JM DeMatteis' Spectacular Spider-Man is severely under-rated), some so-so Spider-Man (Sensational, The Other) and some downright dire (Howard Mackie & John Byrne butchered Spider-Man and dangled him from his testicles in a horrible two year run).
I was ready to drop Spider-Man completely; however, I decided to try-out Brand New Day... and was pleasantly surprised.
The first thing I found almost immediately is that I now feel like I'm reading a Spider-Man comic book again. It's been some time since I read a light-hearted, fun story that saw Peter Parker struggle to deal with problems both personal and in-costume without being overly psychological and, well, adult-oriented. I'd probably date it back to pre-Sins Past. I'm not saying that recent Spider-Man stories haven't been good (exception of The Other); it's just that they haven't offered anything that is uniquely Spider-Man. Back in Black could quite easily have been a Daredevil story, for example.
Brand New Day presents a quintessential characterisation of Spider-Man (and, of course, Peter Parker). This is a classic rendering of the character and far more akin to the persona that Stan Lee & Steve Ditko crafted back in 1962.
Straczynski's Spider-Man, in recent years, has been compelling in terms of story, and, in particular, script; however, it's lacked what I've described above. JMS' Peter Parker was far more mature and considered in his decision-making; he evolved and grew and, in doing so, expanded away from many of his one-time supporting characters. This was a Peter Parker who had no need for a Daily Bugle or Flash Thompson. I'm not saying they weren't good... just not quintessential Spidey at heart.
Perhaps its because JMS found himself increasingly using the character in event-driven stories (New Avengers, The Other, Civil War, Back in Black, One More Day); certainly, it's an explanation he's comfortable with as it's one he himself offered recently.
Then there's the marriage.
I agree with Joe Quesada.
A single Peter Parker, a single Spider-Man, is better than than a married one.
By undoing the marriage, Peter Parker is free again and a myriad of story possibilities are once again available to those writing the character. Sure, I was a fan of the marriage, and the manner in which the marriage was undone was nothing less than shoddy; however, stories featuring a single Peter are just so much more interesting than a married one.
For the last twenty years, there's been no sexual tension with the character. After all, Peter had enjoyed quite the relationship with Black Cat immediately prior to the marriage in 1987. The moment the two were married, that sexual tension disappeared almost immediately. As a character, the Black Cat lost all relevance to Spider-Man; the only real story presented shortly after was one whereby Felicia Hardy began a relationship with Flash Thompson to get at Peter. No more sideways glances at girls, no bantering with female villains; Spider-Man is married and therefore must be presented as a wholesome, happily married character, one who acts as an excellent example to the younger generation of readers.
Now Peter is free to pursue girls again. Love triangles and love trysts abound! After all, Peter could hardly have an affair when married. And for anyone who argues that the writers could simply tell a good story about marriage, I would have to ask that person to pitch it - here - and have it be as compelling as any sub-plot on the printed page should be.
Jackpot a bad idea? Not necessarily. Depends entirely on the execution. So far, I don't think it's Mary Jane. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she were revealed as Peter & MJ's daughter from One More Day.
Good use of villains too. Mr Negative is genuinely intriguing. Menace could be the modern-day equivalent of the 80's Hobgoblin. Freak... well, it's early days for me (two more issues to go) but it looks good so far.
The sub-plots are genuinely intriguing. The serial killer storyline, if handled correctly, could have more twists and turns than Kurt Busiek's Thunderbolts run. The mayoral campaign is an opportunity to get this kind of thing right in a Spider-Man book (Mackie & Byrne, hang your heads in shame for making a Senator an alien). Harry Osborn's back... OK, I haven't decided on that one yet.
My only real negative so far is the loss of the organic web shooters. The web cartridges do feel dated; at least the organic ones hinted at the power potential Stan Lee always felt Spider-Man had. Ah well, can't have everything, I guess.
So... my thoughts... in an essay... sorry... but what do you think?
Reaper
I gave Brand New Day a chance to pull me over the hurdle of awful marriage destroying storytelling.... however after the first two issues it was just a bit crap. The writing was shoddy and cheesey (and not in a fun way) and to me it still seems a step back. If you're getting back into it, great, maybe I'll pick it up again at some point but it's too soon me thinks.
Batmanuel
Sorry Boy Wonder, but I'm with Reaper on this, it wasn't very good at all, in fact i cant remember a time since Chapter one when i have felt Marvel really owed its readers an apology.
and this really really needs to be apologised for.
Robin The Boy Wonder
No, I just think you're forgetting what a Spider-Man comic book should be about.
There are negatives; of course there are.
I've mentioned already the organic web shooters; however, I think Aunt May also deserves a mention here. JMS actually progressed the character by having her discover that her nephew was Spider-Man. Undoing that was a mistake.
I can understand keeping her alive. She also is a quintessential element to Spider-Man. She just became a fairly redundant for all the time Peter was married to Mary Jane.
I don't feel it's shoddy or cheesy though. Sorry, guys; I just don't. I think a large part of why you may feel that way is due to the abruptness of the change in direction and pacing with Spider-Man.
Consider the dark themes that JMS has been exploring with Spider-Man in recent years. Back in Black was a very dark story (by Spider-Man standards) while One More Day was ...well... One More Day (can't defend the indefensible). We then have the bright, cheery, tongue-in-cheek, fast-paced Spider-Man we're being presented with now; an interpretation that is far more in line with the character than the aforementioned darker version.
It's interesting to note you're only commenting on the story though...
Reaper
Interesting in terms of what?
Batmanuel
Sorry Boy Wonder, but I'm with Reaper on this, it wasn't very good at all, in fact i cant remember a time since Chapter one when i have felt Marvel really owed its readers an apology.
and this really really needs to be apologised for.
Didn't i just say that?
Still its gotta be more interesting that watching paint dry... or BND
Xeall
I return to shout AARRRRRGGHHHHH traitor to the cause. Tony stark has poisened your mind and stolen your individuality.
XEALL AWAY!!!!!
CatFang
Xeall wrote:
I return to shout AARRRRRGGHHHHH traitor to the cause. Tony stark has poisened your mind and stolen your individuality.
XEALL AWAY!!!!!
Come back, come back
See what happens when you are gone
Robin The Boy Wonder
I think this has far more to do with One More Day than simply considering Brand New Day as its own individual product.
Not to mention the very dramatic change in style for Spider-Man. Consider JMS' very mature take on the character of Peter Parker in contrast to the all-ages take now - an approach that is far more suited to Spider-Man than the former.
Still, I was hoping that this thread could be used to actually debate Brand New Day and to dissect some of the more 'controversial' changes made rather than members taking sides...
I'll get the ball rolling... ...and start with the most controversial topic then...
The marriage. The undoing. Peter Parker's new status quo as a bachelor. Thoughts...?
Batmanuel
Me thinks the Poor Boy Wonder is the victim here
(oh no Spider-man has foiled our dastardly plan)
You see it goes like this,
I know that our dear Wonder boy has been a big Spider-man fan since... well since he stopped filling his nappies
and this is the reason i believe that he convinces himself that...
(oh no, i have run out of web fluid...again, and just as i was in mid air too)
its alright, its not because it is alright, its not because its good in any way whatsoever.
Its because The Boy Wonder so desperately wants there to be a Spider-man comic in his life
(Damm web shooters jammed, i must have made the last lot to thick)
so i am not going the ridicule here, i am only going pat his head as say, there there, i am sure someone will assassinate JQ, and it will be revealed that it was all a bad deal struck with the devil so JQ could live forever, only to find out that the devil is the prince of lies and he is sooo fired.
depressed and wandering the streets he gets knocked down, killed, enter hell where Lucifer Laughs and says.... what you thought i would let you fuck with Spider-Man? thats my favorite comic. sucker.
Lets Face it Tiger, You Just Hit The Jackpot.....NOT
Robin The Boy Wonder
You couldn't be more wrong...
But your post has nothing to do with the discussion that I'm trying to generate here. It's clear you have an opinion on the subject so rather than tell me that I should be thinking Amazing Spider-Man is bad right now (it's not - I think you've forgotten what a bad Spider-Man comic book is), why don't you bring something useful to the thread...
A counter-point perhaps...? After all, the people on this thread who aren't joining the debate are the ones I spent months with on the Tony Stark thread...
Batmanuel
No... i am not going to bite. i thought that i was making a counter point, and in a humorous fashion too, still you cant get it right all of the time, and i still think that you like many others are reading the current Spidey with rose tinted spectacles, and thats OK, Ive done it myself, (i defended OMD) In the past when a comic i have enjoyed has been totally changed, i have stuck with it, telling myself "its not that bad" but alas looking back now, well they are not the most favorite comics in my collection.
But you only have to look at the amount of negative comment BND has generated to realize that somethings wrong.
i have had long term Spider-man readers of all generations, (Father and Son) spitting venom in the shop over it, personally i read the 1st story ark, and the first issue of the second story ark, and just felt that enough is enough and dropped the title, i didn't mean for my last post to sound like a direct attack at you personally, i was just doing a bit of leg pulling while using you as an example, you can return the favor any time you like and use me as an example if you see fit
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After all, the people on this thread who aren't joining the debate are the ones I spent months with on the Tony Stark thread...
I'm not sure exactly what you mean with this comment, as i can be a bit thick sometimes, but I'm sure you will explain it next time we talk in the shop, you must be due in soon
Robin The Boy Wonder
No, I really do like Brand New Day... no rose-tinted spectacles here.
I just felt the only talking point in this thread is why I like Brand New Day with the counter-point being that I shouldn't.
I also don't think Marvel made a mistake undoing the marriage, y'know...
OK, One More Day is a bad storyline but the marriage itself had to go to move Peter Parker forward again (no matter how odd that sounds considering this is a step back as such).
Maybe this is something we should discuss in the shop... and I am due soon, although probably not for another week yet.
And I must be in need of another humour transplant... this one's getting a little stale... must be the result of watching Catherine Tate...
Batmanuel
Sorry old mate, but i thought it was time for the Aunt to bite the bullet not the wife.
otherwise poor old Peter is going to become like a forty year old virgin still living at home with Mum (Aunt in his case)
It was once said that you couldn't have a Batman without a Robin, well thats been well and truly disproved.
Is it time for a Spider-man Without the grey haired old Aunt? Quite possibly.
does this count as a useful counter-point?
and i don't think i am alone in this view, if the forum was at full tilt i may even be tempted to start a poll, but alas i know that a few key forum members are offline at the moment, problems with connections and as such like, and besides, Ive had enough of having the snot beaten out of me in bloody polls anyway
Mind you...Jackpot...
no one is saying you should not enjoy Spider-man at the moment, its just those of similar mind to myself are finding it difficult to swallow, thats all.
Ps: typed this all out, timed out, and had to start again, so this is probably completely different from the first one, doesn't matter though, i am normally talking gibberish by this time of the evening
Robin The Boy Wonder
I don't disagree with you concerning your point regarding Aunt May. If anything, Peter could perhaps have been 'restarted' without both - a far more likely scenario when making a 'deal with the devil' as Peter did with Mephisto in One More Day.
The only real plot development concerning Aunt May in the last ten years was her discovering that her beloved nephew is, in fact, Spider-Man (ASM 35 - at the very end of JMS' first, and still best, story arc). That's it. Following that, we saw Aunt May come to terms with the fact and her reaction to joining the extended Avengers family. Her reaction to Peter's decision to support the SHRA is also interesting but I do believe we've torn that apart elsewhere.
With regard to Mary Jane, I do feel that there is greater potential to tell better stories, with added sexual tension (a key element to Peter Parker's character), with a single Peter Parker rather than a married one.
We could argue the toss between us right now... but I think this is a debate that demands greater attention similar to the Tony Stark thread. I suggest we place this on hold for a couple of weeks, allow some of the other forum members to return (Xeall) and then go from there. Whaddaya say...?
Batmanuel
Deal !
Xeall
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I suggest we place this on hold for a couple of weeks, allow some of the other forum members to return (Xeall)
You ask and you shall recieve sirs!
Ok i gave this some thought when Bats told me of this discussion originally and i will now admit my brief comment was while drunk, but i stand by it.
The Spider-man stories currently being told do not require at all peter to be single, aunt may to be alive or any of the other reasons they changed everything.
Peter Parker was revealed to not be spider-man by the scarlet spiders in avengers initative and writters could have worked with that. He has meant to have been out of costume for a long time in BND (even though New avengers would say otherwise!), this is a plot devise easily used. Peter asking for his job back could have given JJ the heart attack after their scuffle in Back in black.
So he's broke and needs cash, nothing is new. Aunt may has proved to be nothing but a side story of annoyance. Harry coming back has done nothing.
My point is OMD didn't need to happen for the stroies in BND to happen. That said i feel the stories in BND have been piss poor and retracting rather than expanding. So many great spider-man on going plots are now redundant. Is the spider inside spidey just not bothered about coming out anymore because mephisto says so?
The Story with mr negative (sigh) was dull, the spider mugger was done quite recently i believe OH RIGHT ultimate spiderman, you know that comic doing the whole spiderman single angle.....
The only thing BND has done is.....oh wait i gotta stop i'm out of web fluid AGAIN.......
Robin The Boy Wonder
OK, before I begin, I think you and I both know (and, I daresay, everybody on the forum knows too) that we're about to disagree.
I'll reply to your post for now and expand a little bit later on.
Xeall wrote:
The Spider-man stories currently being told do not require at all peter to be single, aunt may to be alive or any of the other reasons they changed everything.
Well, I think that's entirely untrue (with the exception of the Aunt May part).
I think the one thing that Brand New Day has given Peter, moreso than any other change, are sub-plots with some (currently) underlying sexual tension. It's very clear that Carlie (the CSI girl) is crushing on Peter and would like him to notice her (or at least notice that she's noticing him). I also think there is some attraction between Lily Hollister and Peter. Peter is clearly attracted to her, considering the number of comments he's made (as part of a group) that she's gorgeous. I also think Lily may be attracted to Peter, when considering their scene at the end of Bob Gale's first arc.
Sure, there's no evidence here that Peter is about to rip off their clothes and engage in some guy-on-girl fun; however, it's all very much being told as under the surface. I'm not entirely sure there would be any attraction between these characters were Peter a happily married man. There would be nothing underlying, and nothing more in-your-face further along the road.
With the marriage intact, there can be no sexual tension in Peter's life. Suggest it, and you're suggesting to the younger, more impressionable readers (they are out there, y'know) that infidelity, potential or actual, is acceptable in marriage. And it shouldn't be (although I'm aware that real life is far more complicated than that).
I remember the Black Cat's reaction a couple issues after Peter & MJ wed. It was sudden, Felicia was angry, held MJ by the throat... and then that was that. Sexual tension over. All Felicia could do after that was try to make Peter jealous by dating Flash Thompson (backfired; they fell in love after admitting they were both using the other with Flash using her to get closer to Spider-Man).
We also need to bear in mind that Peter's only recently come out of a long relationship (I know, I know, it's the marriage but I'm calling as it is in BND continuity for now) and isn't actively seeking another lady in his life right now, so the stories are reflecting that.
There's a lot more I want to say but I'll leave it there for now and move on to your other points.
Xeall wrote:
Peter Parker was revealed to not be spider-man by the scarlet spiders in avengers initative and writters could have worked with that. He has meant to have been out of costume for a long time in BND (even though New avengers would say otherwise!), this is a plot devise easily used. Peter asking for his job back could have given JJ the heart attack after their scuffle in Back in black.
The scenario with the Scarlet Spiders caused confusion with regard to Spider-Man's secret identity rather than outright reversing the fact in the eyes of the public. Writers could have worked with that... and I think they are planning to. An interesting note to remember is that the original plan for BND (during Civil War) is that it was going to launch in July 2007...! It makes me wonder when Slott wrote his opening BND arc in comparison to his Initiative story.
So... after their scuffle in Back in Black (which I don't remember...?), Peter, who is known to the world as Spider-Man, would then turn to JJJ ro ask for his old job back.
Would never have happened. And I can't see how that would have worked. The only way for Peter to resume his role as a photographer would have been to go to Front Line and work for Ben Urich.
Xeall wrote:
So he's broke and needs cash, nothing is new. Aunt may has proved to be nothing but a side story of annoyance. Harry coming back has done nothing.
Aunt May is annoying, granted, and should have died. I've always maintained that, with Peter brokering a deal with the devil, Mephisto (being that he is the devil) would have undone the marriage AND killed off May, even if he had initially saved her. That said, I felt she should have stayed dead after Amazing Spider-Man 400.
Harry Osborn's return has done nothing... yet! For me personally, the jury is still out on this one. I was very disappointed to see him return to begin with (I hold his death in Spectacular 200 as a 90's classic) and still shudder at the thought of him. The fact I'm enjoying BND has allowed me to get past this (for the moment).
Xeall wrote:
My point is OMD didn't need to happen for the stroies in BND to happen. That said i feel the stories in BND have been piss poor and retracting rather than expanding. So many great spider-man on going plots are now redundant. Is the spider inside spidey just not bothered about coming out anymore because mephisto says so?
I think you're missing the point with One More Day. Before I go any further though, and my question is very important so please bear with me, did you know, or have any idea, that OMD's sole intention was to undo the marriage...?
Xeall wrote:
The Story with mr negative (sigh) was dull, the spider mugger was done quite recently i believe OH RIGHT ultimate spiderman, you know that comic doing the whole spiderman single angle.....
The only thing BND has done is.....oh wait i gotta stop i'm out of web fluid AGAIN.......
I thought Mr Negative was an intriguing enough villain; however, I felt the story only suffered because it was the first BND story and had to establish the BND Spider-Man simultaneously. As a result, I don't feel there were enough pages to properly flesh out the character.
I don't (currently) read Ultimate Spider-Man; however, USM has always presented a teenaged Peter Parker rather than an adult one. There's a tremendous difference in the two character's experiences to date (one's 16/17; the other's 25). To my understanding, Ultimate Peter Parker will not become an adult for a very long time (Bendis recently mentioned in an interview that the Ultimate Clone Sage likely came 10 months after his Uncle Ben's death)
Ah, the web fluid issue. No point discussing this one - I agree that the organic web shooters were better. It was a natural progression for the character. Which reminds me, I agree that Aunt May serves no purpose to Spider-Man anymore; well, she does... as a rotting zombiefied corpse!
Ya know what, I quite enjoyed writing this post! Thanks, Xeall!
Batmanuel
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
Ya know what, I quite enjoyed writing this post! Thanks, Xeall!
And its official, its a return to fun, and that if nothing else is what its all about
I still thinK Joe Q has been replaced by a Skrull, as has The Boy Wonder, and the BND like the CND , is nothing less than a Skrull plan to deaden us in preparation for the FINAL CONQUEST
Joking as he ducks for cover
Robin The Boy Wonder
There are days when I wish Ann was a Skrull...
...right now is one of those times!
Xeall
hey hey time to get this ball rolling again. Im gonna start with the bits formost in my mind.
Iron boy wonder
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that OMD's sole intention was to undo the marriage...?
Yes i knew this was the point, however in doing so they have destroyed, through continuity, every spiderman story for the last few years. The Other never happened aparrently the gods of the web just dont care anymore, House of M has a completly different affect on peter: he has gwen stacy she is not real oh well im not denying anything here! Civil war every decision he made was for aunt may and mary jane. Just no one remembers who he is now.....come on.
Sorry this is about OMD rather than BND but i still think its valid. So many stories like Other cannot continue due to mephisto changing everything. If they wanted to break up the marriage there were a million ways it could have happened. Instead of divorce (which is bad) you should make a deal with the devil (aparently better). I am not a happy spider-fan
Iron boy wonder
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With the marriage intact, there can be no sexual tension in Peter's life.
Why is sexual tension required? Yes i admit 'the kids' are brought in through this method, but the kids are also brought in by their knowledge of simple spider-man facts. Name a cartoon with spiderman where mary jane is not involved? Even the new animated spiderman coming out this summer is with mary jane. Now give that kid a Spider-man comic and they are lost where is mary? True Harry is in every cartoon and i think due to this and the film is why he is back. If he turns up on a flying snowboard this discussion is soooooo mine.
Also just to go back to the sexual thing, kids still get off on the fact she is a super model sleeping with him every 5 issues and is shown wearing next to nothing quite alot. That works too, if they want sexual tension and swingers head over to Tony Stark, oh wait his sexual tension is gone too! Dont see you complaining there!
Iron boy wonder
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So... after their scuffle in Back in Black (which I don't remember...?), Peter, who is known to the world as Spider-Man, would then turn to JJJ ro ask for his old job back.
I believe it was in sensational but it might have been friendly neighbourhood. But i think you missed my point (not your fault, it is all over the place! ). I was trying to point out there were other ways to achive what they wanted without screwing up continuity, the foundations were there they just needed a good writter, unlike the current ones (my opinion, but not captian)
Iron boy wonder
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Harry Osborn's return has done nothing... yet!
and when he does he'll be the green goblin again and we shall all be dissapointed. What else could he possibly do?
Iron boy wonder
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I don't (currently) read Ultimate Spider-Man
Fool, one of the better comics out there today. fantastically written well thought out and (now) little to no continuity errors that used to plague this comic like..........the plague *sigh*
Am i done? yes im done
Batmanuel
I am not going to get too involved in this, because you seem to be having a whale of a time without my input, besides, its all becoming far too intelligent for me. but
Xeall asks:
Quote:
Why is sexual tension required?
Indeed Why is sexual tension required?
and are you saying that once married sexual tension somehow disappears?
because having suffered... i mean enjoyed a great many years of married life i can assure you it doesnt.
and thats it, i am sodding off now before the Boy Wonder shouts at me
Robin The Boy Wonder
Ding, Ding; Round Two.
Xeall wrote:
Yes i knew this was the point, however in doing so they have destroyed, through continuity, every spiderman story for the last few years. The Other never happened aparrently the gods of the web just dont care anymore, House of M has a completly different affect on peter: he has gwen stacy she is not real oh well im not denying anything here! Civil war every decision he made was for aunt may and mary jane. Just no one remembers who he is now.....come on.
Sorry this is about OMD rather than BND but i still think its valid. So many stories like Other cannot continue due to mephisto changing everything. If they wanted to break up the marriage there were a million ways it could have happened. Instead of divorce (which is bad) you should make a deal with the devil (aparently better). I am not a happy spider-fan
You're right; your paragraphs here are about One More Day and I can't help but feel your feelings toward Brand New Day are coloured slightly by OMD.
Let's be honest, here. I thought One More Day, for the first three chapters at least, was fairly well written. The final chapter... well, not so much. It seems fairly obvious that JMS' script was thrown out of the window in favour of a more Quesada-rised version. And I can't defend that; really, I can't. But this isn't what I'm actually getting at. My point has always been about the perceived quality of Brand New Day rather than the story that preceded it.
There are only two over-riding changes to Spider-Man continuity. The first is that Peter & MJ never married; the second is that nobody (well, almost nobody - a little birdie tells me Norman Osborn still knows) remembers that Peter Parker is Spider-Man.
Everything else happened. The Other. House of M. Civil War. Everything happened exactly as was written. Everybody remembers the press conference whereby Peter unmasked; everybody remembers that Spider-Man revealed all - they just don't remember who he is/was.
Now that doesn't sound perfect and I'll admit to that. I do have some reservations regarding the continuity angle myself (Harry Osborn); however, I'm prepared to reserve final judgment until we actually see, in the comics, an explanation for these problems. The fact I'm enjoying the current stories is enough to satisfy me at the moment. Continuity can come later. I think Marvel have determined everything with regard to BND (they had 18 months to do so); it's just a case of not revealing what all at once.
My point is... everything happened as we read them. Explanations are yet to be given. They can wait for as long as good stories (imo) are being told.
Although I do wish they had kept the organic web shooters...
Xeall wrote:
Why is sexual tension required? Yes i admit 'the kids' are brought in through this method, but the kids are also brought in by their knowledge of simple spider-man facts. Name a cartoon with spiderman where mary jane is not involved? Even the new animated spiderman coming out this summer is with mary jane. Now give that kid a Spider-man comic and they are lost where is mary? True Harry is in every cartoon and i think due to this and the film is why he is back. If he turns up on a flying snowboard this discussion is soooooo mine.
Sexual tension is just a term.
Consider the relationships Peter has enjoyed in the past. Remember when, back when Stan 'n' Steve were writing, Peter found himself dating Betty Brant, all the while being pursued by Liz Allen...? And what of their reaction when they met Mary Jane (some 17 issues before Peter did)...? What of the Peter/Gwen/MJ triangle...? Sure, Harry became involved with MJ but, having read these stories, it was always clear where MJ's loyalties lay. And what of every 80's story featuring one Felicia Hardy...?
There has always been sexual tension in the Spider-Man books; underlying or otherwise. I'm just using a more modern-day term to describe something that, on first reflection, is reasonably innocent.
Xeall wrote:
Also just to go back to the sexual thing, kids still get off on the fact she is a super model sleeping with him every 5 issues and is shown wearing next to nothing quite alot. That works too, if they want sexual tension and swingers head over to Tony Stark, oh wait his sexual tension is gone too! Dont see you complaining there!
Some readers may enjoy the fact Peter is seen bumping bumpers with a scantily-clad MJ (particularly in the MacFarlane & Larsen era); however, Peter Parker is supposed to be an immediately identifiable everyman. It's hard to identify with a character who goes home after a hard day's night to the supermodel wife. I don't have one. Do you...?
Xeall wrote:
I believe it was in sensational but it might have been friendly neighbourhood. But i think you missed my point (not your fault, it is all over the place! ). I was trying to point out there were other ways to achive what they wanted without screwing up continuity, the foundations were there they just needed a good writter, unlike the current ones (my opinion, but not captian)
They are good writers although that is always a matter of opinion. It would be hard to undo the secret identity issue when considering how publicly Peter Parker used his abilities in Civil War and Back in Black... no matter what they did in Avengers: Intiative. It would be a very long-term thing to undo and, even then, something they couldn't comprehensively undo just as they haven't with Daredevil.
Xeall wrote:
and when he does he'll be the green goblin again and we shall all be dissapointed. What else could he possibly do?
Who knows...? Sure, he may one day become the Green Goblin again; however, I very much doubt the decision was made to bring him back just so that they could do all that all over again.
Xeall wrote:
Fool, one of the better comics out there today. fantastically written well thought out and (now) little to no continuity errors that used to plague this comic like..........the plague *sigh*
Am i done? yes im done
Yep, you're cooked!
Regarding Ultimate Spider-Man, I dropped the title at a time when I had some severe personal problems in my life (Manny knows). I've recently re-read some old issues and re-discovered my love for the title... so, who knows for the future...?
Robin The Boy Wonder
Batmanuel wrote:
because having suffered... i mean enjoyed a great many years of married life i can assure you it doesnt.
and thats it, i am sodding off now before the Boy Wonder shouts at me
Sexual tension...?
What's that...?
Xeall
I think what this comes down too is two sides of a coin.
You like what is curently being written
I don't like it, due to the fact i believe what it could have been would have been better by far.
seeing peter parker back to where he was just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. All those great stories which actually got me back into comics (Ultimate spider-man is mainly responsible, but 616 is where my heart lies as a kid) mean nothing as although they apparentlly happened no effects can come from them.
All of peters new ablities seem to have gone, i could be wrong but the other defined spider-man again and it annoys me that (in my mind) its taken a step back.
But let me get to the content of BND. The Menace.....is another goblin character doing nothing new, im almost convinced it is harry from the latest issue, dont ask why its a gut feeling......my spider-sense is tingling! Freak is another character created from the doc conner syrum. Nothing is new, it all old and been done, with previous spiderman stories it felt it was going somewhere.
Here is the thing that struck me today, spider-man now feels X-men-ish. Allow me to explain, x-men (until recently) has never felt part of the rest of the marvel universe, as if they live in another continuity with nothing effecting them. That is how spider-man is, the SHRA seems to just be a passing topic. Before BND the cape-killers would be all over a unregistared super hero wanted for murder. Yes i know jackpot mentions something about it but nothing really comes of it.
Another thing (rant ensuing), skrulls everywhere and no one knows who to trust and there is spidey in the most important super group and no-one knows who he is. I think bendis is just trying to ignore this and good on him (i know he didn't like OMD at all).
I know you think BND should be seen in a differnt light to OMD but they are closly linked in the stories told and the effect on what we read now.
I am only buying spidey now as he is my favorite super and has been since i was a kid, all my hopes are in the fact this all turns round and becomes good in my eyes. The back page of this weeks issue hinted toward this for me, but also ruined the current thunderbolts storyline......unless ellis is waiting until august to release the next part.......which wouldn't suprise me.
Basically rounding up i don't like BND because what should have come instead would have been better!
Robin The Boy Wonder
And like you say, I'm the flip side to the coin.
I think Brand New Day is classic, quintessential Spider-Man, providing an interpretation of the character that's been sorely needed for years. I will always stand by the JMS material as something that genuinely moved Spider-Man forward; this coming at a time when a lot had been done to move the character backward (the after-effect of the Clone Saga).
I think it's best we agree to disagree. We're both defending our opinions and we could do this for another 50 pages, but, unlike the Tony Stark thread, we actually completely understand where the other is coming from. Furthermore, I don't think it would have taken that much for me to firmly be on your side.
I suspect our opinion may also reflect how we came into comics, and Spider-Man. I could be wrong, but your post leads me to think that.
That doesn't mean I'm not going to quote you though!
Xeall wrote:
But let me get to the content of BND. The Menace.....is another goblin character doing nothing new, im almost convinced it is harry from the latest issue, dont ask why its a gut feeling......my spider-sense is tingling! Freak is another character created from the doc conner syrum. Nothing is new, it all old and been done, with previous spiderman stories it felt it was going somewhere.
Menace is reminiscent of Hobgoblin, to my mind. A lot will depend on the execution, just as it did with Hobgoblin. One thing that assisted the developing of Hobgoblin was that there was no Green Goblin in direct competition with the character, unlike now with Menace.
If Menace is Harry Osborn, I will take this all back - you have my word on that. But I don't think Osborn is... it just seems far too obvious for my liking. Similar to my gut feeling that Mary Jane is not Jackpot.
I think Freak has potential, although you do have an advantage over me - I've not read the next instalment for the character. That said, I do think the idea of a character who will become increasingly resilient with each beating has a lot of potential (ie. he's shot with a gun, then returns bullet-proof; next up, he is set on fire and returns fire-proof). Spider-Man needs a villain like this in his rogues somewhere.
I also can't help but feel that many stories have been re-told elsewhere and are not really that new (maybe it just seems that way to me).
Xeall wrote:
Another thing (rant ensuing), skrulls everywhere and no one knows who to trust and there is spidey in the most important super group and no-one knows who he is. I think bendis is just trying to ignore this and good on him (i know he didn't like OMD at all).
Bendis may not have liked BND; however, does feel that Peter should be single. As do apparently almost everyone on the Marvel staff; a mood that's been prevalent since midway through the Clone Saga.
I also can't help but feel that, in order to properly tell Secret Invasion, Bendis needs to avoid this issue like the plague just so that the main story doesn't get bogged down with unnecessary detail. It'll be interesting to see what he does with it, if anything, after Secret Invasion wraps.
Xeall wrote:
I know you think BND should be seen in a differnt light to OMD but they are closly linked in the stories told and the effect on what we read now.
You're not wrong there but I still believe BND has to be considered separately to OMD - it's just very hard to do. Either way, I do like Brand New Day (so far). The stories haven't been great, admittedly; however, they have been quite good and I do think the creators at hand have a real handle on the quintessential Peter Parker. If, in six months time, all this good is churlishly undone through poor storytelling, then I may change my mind and I would be lying if I said there weren't areas that didn't concern me (web shooters, Aunt May, Harry Osborn). For now, though, I think the quality of the stories should mean we give BND a chance and my areas of concern need more time before I either support or condemn them, I think.
Another thing - it's actually quite hard to debate the pros and cons of a character we love, isn't it...? Or is that just me...?
Xeall
yes, when you have been with a character for such a time different people take different things. I liked the new more aggressive if anything else spin on spidey which is why im dissapointed in the return to standard.
I hope the comic moves forward as a fan and maybe one day i'll forget i ever disliked the change as new continuing stories appear, but something makes me think that i'll always miss what spiderman could have been.
Also just to say i am not against peter being single, if thats the way they want to go then fine, im just annoyed about how they handled it and how it has effected the continuality by making it never exist.
Batmanuel
Xeall:
Quote:
but something makes me think that i'll always miss what spiderman could have been.
Not only what he could have been, but what he was.
waffle
I was really, really pissed off with the decision to reverse history and undo a whole bunch of stuff, but with a stack of BNDs now read, I have to say... I really, really like it.
I didn't want to, believe me, and I would love a reason to get rid of Spidey from my pull list cos I'm so skint - but I just can't. Forget about the past, view it as a reboot, and it's a lot of fun and is a very enjoyable series once again - something that was missing from OMD and most of what preceded it.
Robin The Boy Wonder
Waffle has just summed up in two paragraphs exactly how I feel.
Believe me, I was this close to dropping Amazing Spider-Man after reading One More Day. In fact, I even changed my mind on a daily basis at one point.
It's just a lot fun right now. Let me put it another way...
Before, I had to be in the mood to read Spider-Man. I loved JMS' take on the character; however, his was a more thought-provoking read, from his character-driven plot through to the excellent scripting. I had to be in the right frame of mind to read it and to properly immerse myself in the story. A little bit like Captain America. To properly appreciate it, you need to be in the right mood before reading.
Now, mood be damned; reading Spider-Man is fun and usually puts a smile on my face.
Batmanuel
Well Xeall pretty much summed up how i feel about BND,
Its not quite friendly, its not quite very nearly Sensational.
But it sure as hell is not Amazing.
Well it might be if i had never ever read a Spiderman comic.
It might be if there had never ever been an Amazing Spiderman comic.
it could almost be if i was 10 years old and living in 1965.
But i have read Spideman comics.
there has been an Amazing Spiderman comic.
and i am not 10 years old and living in a time that has all but been forgotten.
and much like Civil War the sides are firmly divided.
But i will say one thing, those for BND are using slogans like "its not that bad" and "i quite like it"
Those against are spitting Venom (and i dont mean a black suited dude with big teeth) those people are angry, not complacent.
I see it in the shop near every day, (well not so much everyday now, but at first it was close) all those people have now dropped the title so they have stopped ranting.
Still you know somethings not right when you have "Guest Staring Wolverine" splatered on the cover.
And in this months Previews
Issue 568
THE STORY:
"NEW WAYS TO DIE!"
JOHN ROMITA JR. returns to AMAZING SPIDER-MAN!
Get ready for the six part Spidey Summer Blockbuster: NEW WAYS TO DIE. In the double-sized part one, THE THUNDERBOLTS are coming to New York to take down Spider-Man! And Spidey's Brand New Day will be changed forever. Plus, Mark Waid and Adi Granov bring you up to date with Original Venom, Eddie Brock!
sounds exciting doesent it? And Spidey's Brand New Day will be changed forever... again... could this spell a U-Turn?
we shall see, we shall see
Back in Black maybe? Spidey faces off with the Green Goblin and gets revenge for the Death of his Girl friend (see latest Thunderbolts for full confession) oh hang on.... that didn't happen did it.
That Osborne, he's mad he is, fancy making up not only killing Peters Xgirl friend, but shagging her as well.
which incidently was another storyline that didn't gel well.
Well im off to do my bloody Diamond Lists again
Appologies for being absent, but ive been a bit busy
Robin The Boy Wonder
I've got to bite - it just seems unfair not to.
Batmanuel wrote:
Well it might be if i had never ever read a Spiderman comic.
It might be if there had never ever been an Amazing Spiderman comic.
it could almost be if i was 10 years old and living in 1965.
But i have read Spideman comics.
there has been an Amazing Spiderman comic.
and i am not 10 years old and living in a time that has all but been forgotten.
I'm not 10 years old. I'm not living in a time that the modern world has forgotten. And I like Brand New Day. So what are you trying to say...?
Unless you're forgetting the vast number of Amazing Spider-Man issues I've bought from you in the past dating back to the early 80's. Not to mention many of the Essential volumes. If anything, the only decade that I haven't yet sampled with the character is the 70's.
Batmanuel wrote:
and much like Civil War the sides are firmly divided.
But i will say one thing, those for BND are using slogans like "its not that bad" and "i quite like it"
Those against are spitting Venom (and i dont mean a black suited dude with big teeth) those people are angry, not complacent.
I see it in the shop near every day, (well not so much everyday now, but at first it was close) all those people have now dropped the title so they have stopped ranting.
I see what you're saying but there are a number of Spider-Man readers who, like myself, are enjoying Brand New Day and who have invested heavily in the character for some years (decades) even.
I find it more interesting to note the ever-increasing number of Spider-Man readers (who post throughout various websites on the net) who admit that Brand New Day is actually pretty good, despite the fact they were prepared to drop the title following the oh-so disappointing One More Day.
The majority of those who flame BND (although I assume both you and Xeall will be exceptions to what I am about to say) haven't even read the bloody thing; they dropped the title following One More Day. I wonder how many of your customers dropped Amazing Spider-Man purely because of what happened in OMD rather than sampling the current product...? I'm not after names; just curious, is all.
Batmanuel wrote:
Still you know somethings not right when you have "Guest Staring Wolverine" splatered on the cover.
Never mind the fact the guest appearance had been planned months before JMS even finished scripting One More Day!
Batmanuel wrote:
Issue 568
THE STORY:
"NEW WAYS TO DIE!"
JOHN ROMITA JR. returns to AMAZING SPIDER-MAN!
Get ready for the six part Spidey Summer Blockbuster: NEW WAYS TO DIE. In the double-sized part one, THE THUNDERBOLTS are coming to New York to take down Spider-Man! And Spidey's Brand New Day will be changed forever. Plus, Mark Waid and Adi Granov bring you up to date with Original Venom, Eddie Brock!
sounds exciting doesent it? And Spidey's Brand New Day will be changed forever... again... could this spell a U-Turn?
A u-turn?
In one word: No.
Batmanuel wrote:
Back in Black maybe? Spidey faces off with the Green Goblin and gets revenge for the Death of his Girl friend (see latest Thunderbolts for full confession) oh hang on.... that didn't happen did it.
That Osborne, he's mad he is, fancy making up not only killing Peters Xgirl friend, but shagging her as well.
which incidently was another storyline that didn't gel well.
I need to read Thunderbolts... otherwise I have no idea what you're banging on about here. I know the stories you're referring to... but they're not being undone...
Sins Past. Ah, Sins Past. Poorly plotted. Excellent script. And JMS' original idea was far, far worse. Of course, Sins Past was the decline for JMS' overall quality, in my opinion.
***
Tit-fot-tat aside, the one thing I haven't seen you do, Bats, is explain why you dislike Brand New Day. You're quick to endorse the opinions you agree with (I haven't got a problem with that), but what you're not doing is explaining why you feel this way.
Is it One More Day?
Is the undoing of the marriage?
What is it about Brand New Day you specifically dislike (other than the web shooters and Aunt May - I'm with you on that)?
Please, I'd really like to know.
PS. On another note, have you read my PM from 10 days ago...?
Batmanuel
Wow!!!
What a post
Boy Wonders fingers must be bleeding from the frantic typing
First and foremost i would like to address...
Boy Wonder's comment,
Quote:
the one thing I haven't seen you do, Bats, is explain why you dislike Brand New Day.
This reminds me of the time you asked me to back up my statement on alcohol abuse, it really is like stating the obvious, but never mind,
and i was not aware that i had not given reasons as to why i dont like BND, i thought i had explained myself quite clearly, still never mind.
But when it comes to the crunch (see my comments elsewhere on a similar scenario which happened in The Batman Comics past tense)
I find it an insult to my intelligence,
i mean i may not be the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but you dont have to be to realize that BND is complete nonsense,
Incidentally, could you explain exactly why you are supporting it?
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
I'm not 10 years old. I'm not living in a time that the modern world has forgotten. And I like Brand New Day. So what are you trying to say...?
Its Not Amazing.
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
I see what you're saying but there are a number of Spider-Man readers who, like myself, are enjoying Brand New Day and who have invested heavily in the character for some years (decades) even.
And i think you have hit the nail on the head here, after the years (decades) even, you really dont want to be left without and therefore seek to tolerate it, (i think i may have made this point in a past post but got shot down in flames for suggesting it)
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
I wonder how many of your customers dropped Amazing Spider-Man purely because of what happened in OMD rather than sampling the current product...? I'm not after names; just curious, is all.
Ah, Now here's the kicker, and this is fact not fiction and comes from twenty years experience in selling comics.
when a successful writer / artist finish a seminal run on a character such as Spider-Man (and currently Garth Ennis run on Punisher as an example)
you have about a three to four issue window in which those buyers will continue with the title, if the comic doesnt live up to the standard set or expected by those readers they will spend there money elsewhere, its as simple as that, and all of those people i have spoken to who have spat venom as a result of BND have indeed read at least three to four issues.
Its only Masochists like me and Xeall who go above and beyond the call of duty.
However having said that there are those who know the game and wont waste there money, these people drop it right away, and they dont have to explain themselves, its their choice.
Do i know you? maybe, in another life, maybe in another life, Give me a break.
And its interesting to note the current plans include a (passably new Symbiote the long awaited Norman Osbourne and Peter Parker rematch to spice the title up, even if the Green Goblin cant remember why he hates Spider-Man so Much, kind of a cop out really, all the past history between Peter and Osborne has been erased, so its not so much a revenge rematch that has years of history and substance, but more of a cheap sales gimmick which has lost all of its meaning.
at this point i have stumbled across a possible reason why this has been done, Spider-Man is the biggest currently licence in the world.
Maybe those licensee's have flexed themselves and said, hang on we dont want Spiderman to have organic webbing, we dont want him to have spikes, hell we dont want him to be anything else that other than what he was, that worked, we can sell that, so put it back or else.
Just sumising, thats all, and trying to make some sense of the maddness that the Spider-Man comic has become.
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
Never mind the fact the guest appearance had been planned months before JMS even finished scripting One More Day!
And you know this for sure do you? i mean i tend to get information way in advance and i didn't know that Wolverine had been planned as a guest after several issues after JMS was to leave the comic, now if i had been told that Wolverine was to appear during the JMS run, Spidey being a New Avenger and all, i might have said well its not a for sales boost, its obviously due to a necessary sub plot.
But in this case i think not, i have seen it in the past far too often.
I would give you some examples, but its getting late,
maybe in another life
Robin The Boy Wonder
I have the feeling we're going round and round in circles here... but I can give you 10 minutes worth before the football, I guess!
Batmanuel wrote:
and i was not aware that i had not given reasons as to why i dont like BND, i thought i had explained myself quite clearly, still never mind.
So far, all you've really done is tell me that you don't like it. You've mentioned the web shooters but, beyond that, I can' see any actual reasons for why you dislike it so. Unless, of course, it's 'Not Amazing' is the only reason you have...? Just curious, is all...
Batmanuel wrote:
Incidentally, could you explain exactly why you are supporting it?
Please see Page 1.
In brief: Brand New Day offers a classically rendered, quintessentially characterised Spider-Man. This is the character Stan Lee & Steve Ditko created all those years ago, with a rendition that is far closer to the heart of the character than has been portrayed in some years.
This is the Spider-Man that attracted me to the character in the first place; this is the Spider-Man who not only introduced me to comics but kept me there too.
Currently, Amazing Spider-Man is the most fun a Spider-Man comic has been for some years. JMS' Spider-Man was an absorbing and interesting read, although not necessarily a 'fun' one with the original ideals of the character placed front and centre.
Will that do...?
Batmanuel wrote:
And i think you have hit the nail on the head here, after the years (decades) even, you really dont want to be left without and therefore seek to tolerate it, (i think i may have made this point in a past post but got shot down in flames for suggesting it)
I'll shoot you down in flames again then.
You have absolutely no idea how close I was to dropping Amazing Spider-Man after One More Day. One day, I'd decided to drop; the next, I changed my mind. It was like that for me day in, day out.
Believe me, I don't tolerate comics anymore. Considering the lack of time I have to read them at the moment, I have to be sure the comics I buy each month are the ones I absolutely want to read each month. My only wish is that I had more time to read - because then I'd buy more comics.
Batmanuel wrote:
Do i know you? maybe, in another life, maybe in another life, Give me a break.
...I have no idea what this means...
Sorry, just way over my head. Sorry.
Batmanuel wrote:
And its interesting to note the current plans include a (passably new Symbiote the long awaited Norman Osbourne and Peter Parker rematch to spice the title up, even if the Green Goblin cant remember why he hates Spider-Man so Much, kind of a cop out really, all the past history between Peter and Osborne has been erased, so its not so much a revenge rematch that has years of history and substance, but more of a cheap sales gimmick which has lost all of its meaning.
No, I actually think this one comes from a convention last year where the fans demanded the return of Eddie Brock as Venom. The Spider-Man team were unprepared for how popular the original (and true) iteration of Venom still is.
Cheap sales gimmick...? Maybe; however, I'd like to point out that John Romita Jr (who is pencilling the arc) was announced as having started the story last year - before the end to One More Day had even shipped.
I'm sorry - that reads almost like I know more than you and I don't mean it to read that way at all. Let me explain by saying that I digest a lot of Spider-Man related news on a weekly basis, no matter how small, no matter where the information may be. That said, I completely understand your point of view on the subject.
Batmanuel wrote:
at this point i have stumbled across a possible reason why this has been done, Spider-Man is the biggest currently licence in the world.
Maybe those licensee's have flexed themselves and said, hang on we dont want Spiderman to have organic webbing, we dont want him to have spikes, hell we dont want him to be anything else that other than what he was, that worked, we can sell that, so put it back or else.
Marvel own the character. It's up to Marvel what happens with the character. In this case, Tom Brevoort made the decision to replace the organic web shooters with the mechanical ones.
Batmanuel wrote:
And you know this for sure do you? i mean i tend to get information way in advance and i didn't know that Wolverine had been planned as a guest after several issues after JMS was to leave the comic, now if i had been told that Wolverine was to appear during the JMS run, Spidey being a New Avenger and all, i might have said well its not a for sales boost, its obviously due to a necessary sub plot.
Brand New Day was originally supposed to ship in July 2007. Yes, that's right - July 2007. The only reason it did not do so was because of the various delays behind One More Day. And this is where it gets interesting...
Preview art for April's Spider-Man (guest starring Wolverine) was available in October last year (may even have been September or, at the latest, November, but October sounds right to me). The preview art was released at a time when Brand New Day had been re-scheduled, and heavily publicised, as a November launch.
This was at about the same time JMS completed his script for the final chapter of One More Day, a chapter that was heavily re-written because it didn't match with what had already been established for Brand New Day, not to mention the fact a sizable chunk of those first four months had already been written and drawn.
This all came out in a very candid interview with Joe Quesada the week after One More Day had ended. The links are here on the site somewhere.
Y'know, I think I'm more passionate on this subject than I was Tony Stark!
Batmanuel
boy wonder
Quote:
Y'know, I think I'm more passionate on this subject than I was Tony Stark!
Just Logged on real quick to post some news, get back to you real soon but you may be right around and around we go but it is keeping the forum alive, and as long as we don't fall out over it we can continue to go around and around
Ah, but good old TS, you haven't read Secret Invasion #3 yet have you?
And the pun "in another life" came from the latest AM, you will understand when you read it.
so i am off to post some news, and hoping Xeall will put in before i get back to you.
Keep your end up True Believer at this point all i will say is Anti Venom
Robin The Boy Wonder
I haven't even read the first issue of Secret Invasion yet, let alone the third!
Anti-Venom. Yep, heard all about him. Probably something to do with Mr Negative... and probably not a symbiote either. That's my line of thought at least...
By the way, I read ASM 558 the other night (Bob Gale & Barry Kitson); a one-off story featuring the rematch between Spidey and Freak. Easily the best BND story so far (not that anyone will believe me...) and, considering the quality of what we have had, it shows (in my opinion, at least) that the future of Spider-Man is in very safe hands.
Batmanuel
Ohhhh Shit:
Boy Wonders replied to my last post.
Now I'm in trouble.
Oh hang on i haven't replied to his last post properly yet, Phew,
And her we go
Boy Wonder, i cant believe you haven't read a single issue of Secret Invasion yet, come on, get with the program, how can you resist, i know people (well Rascal at least) who down load this just to read it a few hours early.
All joking aside this story is (like Civil War) kicking Arse, you have to read it, if you have copies at home, read them now, i will wait..... finished yet? no?? oh do pull your finger out old boy.
am i still in trouble? or am i forgiven??
Where was i? Ah that's it...
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
I can' see any actual reasons for why you dislike it so. Unless, of course, it's 'Not Amazing' is the only reason you have...?
Well i have added that it insults my intelligence and its not amazing, what more do you need.
Every issue i read exasperates me to the point of despair, Jackpot, web fluid, aunt in danger, harry, paparazzi, spider tracers, Digital age, in another life, the list grows with every issue. but the one thing that really gets me above all this, Peter was the only hero who registered, and then realised that he had made the wrong decision. (for him anyway)
This has all but been swept away, that one mans stance against the establishment has been crushed, and i believe for nothing more than money reasons. that sucks.
i don't mind that you are enjoying them, really, its not about that, i wish i could enjoy them, but i cant, its like watching a soap, why do they call them soaps, will someone explain that to me? its a bit like calling a prostitute a Nun.
but i digress.
And unfortunately i have seen this happen before, and much as loved reading Batman comics in the past, i just couldn't tolerate The New Adventures of Batman (Period 1990) why? same reasons. did it hurt batman sales? well yes it did, (long term) so much so that they had to kill off the character they had so haphazardly introduced, fortunately for DC it was a key character and in the end they made it pay.
With Bnd the only character who is a key here is Spidey....
So where do we go from here, i don't know,
we can keep the title alive to a certain degree with really good artists and writers,
we can hype it up a bit with the remnant's of current story threads which should now be void,
IE Osbourne licence to kill, (i do feel this story would have been best served before BND), oh and of course, Venom, everybody loves Venom, but once the glitz dies, and the lights go down, and The Spiderman Comic has to rely on just plan good old story telling, what then?
Well you could ask JMS, but by then he may just tell to to shove it, and i wouldn't blame him, no, that era is now over, it cannot be returned to, i can only hope, that like the Batman comics, new blood will enter and raise the phoenix from the ashes.
But by then i would have got used to not reading Spider-Man, and wont give a shit.
And while you say you have invested many years of your life to this character, well not as many as i, i have always loved Spidey, since i picked up that issue three in a junk shop many moons ago.
And the same with Batman too, many years invested.
Do i currently read Batman.... No
Do i Currently read Spider-_Man.... well no (apart from seeing whats happening that is, but i am now in a position to put it back)
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
This is the character Stan Lee & Steve Ditko created all those years ago
If only it were that good.
Quote:
Marvel own the character. It's up to Marvel what happens with the character. In this case,
Oh no its not... licence holders, merchandisers, bankers, to name a few,
Put it this way, if you owned a character, and people were throwing money at you to use this character, and you wanted "A" but the money people wanted "B" then what?
And in the immortal words of Stan Lee, Nuff said.
Ps: Stan was last seen ranting in the Marvel offices, something to do with Gwen, and if you bring her back its letter bombs for you lot
Thats it, im off to bed now, nighty night.
Xeall
I haven't read all your posts but may i just throw in one line?
'Oh no spider-man has foiled our evil plans, get him!'
I didn't realise they replaced JMS with the writter from the adam west batman series.
Batmanuel
Oh come on,
Thats a bit hash,
on the writer.....of the Adam West TV Show
Robin The Boy Wonder
No lengthy reply here... as Bats (finally) delivered a reason beyond merely stating 'it's not Amazing' by expanding upon his thoughts on Brand New Day.
I do understand where you're coming from; however, I think this is where we have to agree to disagree (for now).
I argue that Brand New Day has restored the quintessential Spider-Man, a character who has been missing from Marvel for some time now. In return, Bats argues that much of what made Spider-Man the character he is today has been swept away. We offer the complete opposite in terms of the favour for and against Brand New Day.
You began collecting Spider-Man way back when with the third issue (one of my all-time favourites, incidentally - and the story that got me into Spider-Man in the first place) whereas I've been collecting for the last 15 years and, through you, found my way into the myriad history of our favourite web-slinging character. In a way, Spider-Man is a very important part of our history, and today, has divided our opinion.
So therein lies the true success of One More Day & Brand New Day; if nothing else, it's gotten everyone talking about Spider-Man again!
Oh, and I'm right. Again.
Batmanuel
Just as a PostScript to the last post, if the true success of BND if to have got people talking about Spider-Man again, then im not sure that this can be considered its true success.
People were already taking about spider-man, and fandom assembled were talking about it during the clone saga, and the beginning of the JMS run, and certainatly during the Civil War.
What Bnd needs to do is stand the test of time, and i cant see it doing that, as it is at the end of the day, an altered reality by a most fiendish Villain.
I do feel that the JMS run will be classed in the future as a seminal run in much the same way that Frank Millers run on Daredevil is perceived
Bnd on the other hand, i am not so sure, it could turn out right in the end, or it could become another clone saga.
we will have to see what time bring to the table.
and until then.... it means that beyond all and every shadow of doubt, and administered by the law which says I'm right and your wrong,
its ME, MEMEMEME, thats right. Again so there
Robin The Boy Wonder
It's funny you should mention The Clone Saga...
For years now, The Clone Saga was considered as one of the worst Spidre-Man stories, if not the worst, ever. Marvel were very conscious of The Clone Saga and worked far harder than they needed to, to distance themselves from it (Mackie & Byrne's run immediately springs to mind as an example, with Mackie himself admitting their approach was designed to do exactly that).
Today, though, things have changed slightly.
The Clone Saga still has its detractors, sure; however, it's also the most requested material for reprint as a TPB. Ben Reilly is the most requested character for a return. There seems to be a general feeling that The Clone Saga may finally be ready for acceptance (again).
And like Brand New Day, it really wasn't that bad... in fact, if you know where to look, it was bloody brilliant!
This may have nothing to do with the thread at hand but, seeing as how you mentioned it in passing, I thought it was worth commenting on...
Xeall
I'm simply not enjoying it at all. The mary jane return was so poorly written i think i did better when i was 3, the art is poor at best with harry osborn looking like his head has been put in a vice.
My arguement truly against BND is a lack of originality, depth, intrige and 616.
By 616 i mean that spider-man like the x-men is now seperated from the events of the world. With knowledge that the thunderbolts are going to be used to take him down in a story later this year, you could argue against this. However truly the only purpose is to use norman osborn and possibly vemon again in a plot, nothing to do with the SHRA.
The phrase i constantly hear from BND fans is 'its not that bad', by default your saying its not that good either.
New avengers and The Thunderbolts have held better spider-man stories than BND.
Reaper
So what happened in regards to Mary Janes return?
Robin The Boy Wonder
Xeall wrote:
The phrase i constantly hear from BND fans is 'its not that bad', by default your saying its not that good either.
Not exactly - saying 'it's not that bad' can carry it with it several different meanings, including yours.
When I say 'it's not that bad', it's in reference to the criticism that some have to BND. I'm quite enjoying it and I don't feel it's anywhere near as bad as some have made out. Overall, I feel that Spider-Man has become a fun read again; something that has been missing for some years now.
Oddly enough, this forum seems to be offering an exception to what I've seen elsewhere. Xeall and Bats have actually read the material and don't like it, whereas on Newsarama, the response (initially volatile) has really softened.
Those who deride BND haven't actually read the material so shouldn't really be offering an opinion on whether its good or bad - they simply haven't judged the material properly (unlike you guys, I have to admit). Those who are reading BND are liking it; and there seems to be only a few who do read it and aren't enjoying it.
Still, different website, different people, completely different audience, perhaps; just thought it worth mentioning.
Later this week, and when I have far more time on my hands, I'm going to do a sales analysis on Amazing Spider-Man. I've done some work on it. I'm not trying to prove, or disprove, a point here - just think it may be of interest to everyone.
Xeall
I actually would be intrested in this. I'd like to see which side i'm on, winning or losing. However we all have seen that even on the losing side bats and I are right.
Batmanuel
Xeall:
Quote:
However we all have seen that even on the losing side bats and I are right.
You know what.
I kinda like this statement
It makes me feel all warm and glowing
you can win the battle, but the War is ours
Robin The Boy Wonder
Sorry, guys; really thought I would've done this by now.
I've had a very busy week. Work. Football. Trying to sell my house. On the verge of moving into the next one.
Will find the time at the weekend.
Oh... and sales seem to support both arguments at the moment. Will explain more later.
Robin The Boy Wonder
Well, it took me longer than expected but I've been putting together some facts and figures on Amazing Spider-Man. I'm not using these to support either argument although it will inevitably be used by us as in our ongoing war over the current quality of Spider-Man.
Firstly, here are the sales figures for Amazing Spider-Man in the Brand New Day era. Please remember these figures are based upon final retailer orders in North America to Diamond; these are as accuate as we're going to get for now so...
We'll use the current month (May) as our comparison against previous years. I'll offer the average sales figure of all ongoing Spider-Man titles released that month (ie. only two ongoing Spider-Man titles were released in May 2007 - Amazing & Friendly Neighbourhood).
In comparing the last five years in the month of May, May 2008's total figure, despite declining sales per issue of Amazing, compares rather favourably. We must bear in mind the higher total sales figures in May 2004 was bloated by the fact this month saw the second issue of Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man ship.
In terms of average sales, May 2007 was quite kind to Spider-Man by virtue of the fact the second chapter to Back In Black shipped, a high-selling storyline for our famed character.
In fact, why not take a look at 2007 for the web-slinger:
SEN 34 - 47,000
SEN 35 - 59,412 (Back In Black)
SEN 36 - 56,135
SEN 37 - 57,469
SEN 38 - 57,055
SEN 39 - 55,326
SEN 40 - 52,177
Sales of Amazing Spider-Man were favourable in 2007 due to the larger events taking place within the title (Civil War & Back In Black); in fact, sales figures for the title have been quite good since The Road To Civil War began. Before that, Amazing Spider-Man would register somewhere beneath 80,000 per month (ie. May 2005 saw sales of 76,500).
In all, sales figures for Amazing Spider-Man since Brand New Day began are in decline; however, I doubt Marvel expected them to peak against last year's figures and were likely looking at the total sales in any one month. After all, the supporting titles wouldn't usually be anywhere near the main title (Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider being an exception - I was quite surprised to see the difference in figures after Millar left).
It would appear that, prior to Civil War, the three Spider-Man titles sold somewhere in the region of 180,000 per month. Even now, in May 2008, this is far exceeded by the current 225,000.
But does this make Brand New Day a success or failure...?
CatFang
That is interesting stuff.
Although I don't know where we could get the info it would be interesting to see if either the film or downloads had a positive/negative effect on the sales.
Robin The Boy Wonder
That's where it could get tricky although it may depend what we're looking for.
Spider-Man 3 may have had an effect but I honestly can't see where. Back In Black was the story on release at that time and, as you can see, the sales figures were declining quite heavily issue-on-issue until Chapter 3, which seems to be pretty typical following the start of an 'event' story.
I'll take a look at when Spider-Man 1 & 2 were released and see if there was any impact. I'd also best check Ultimate Spider-Man too as this is a more new reader-friendly title, I think. I can imagine 616 Spidey may be pretty daunting for the new reader. Oh, and I'd better not forget Marvel Adventures Spider-Man - the highest-selling title for Marvel on subscription!
Batmanuel
sales figures do not equal good.
if this were the case, we would all be talking about Easterners, while shows like My name is Earl, comics like Killing Girl, and films like Control would go largely unnoticed.
Shame on you Boy Wonder, Shame on you
CatFang
Batmanuel wrote:
sales figures do not equal good.
Of course they do not necessarily equal "quality writing" - look at how many copies of rubbish "celebrity" biographies or Heat Magazine (actually that is very clever positioning and writing in many ways) are sold.
But something makes them sell. I think it is very fascinating to try and find out what that is.
Either enough people DO actually enjoy the things that might be dismissed by others, or they feel compelled to keep buying stuff they DON'T like. Both of these things are interesting - the second more than the first in many ways.
Must do some training now but have more to say about this.
Robin The Boy Wonder
Well, thanks for making me feel like I wasted my time.
Seriously.
I didn't do this to support an argument; I did this to see how the title performs. To dismiss the quality of a product just because it may sell well is, quite frankly, appalling. Surely it's all a case of personal taste.
EastEnders, while not to my taste, has a large, loyal following. People do enjoy watching it night after night after night...
If anything, the sales figures on Amazing Spider-Man prove that there is a loyal fanbase who are enjoying the product just as there are a great number of people who have dropped the title - because it isn't to their taste.
Let's not forget the marketing potential a product like EastEnders has in comparison to My Name Is Earl. The same happens in comics - Spider-Man has a large marketing potential (not to mention the fact it's Marvel's flagship character in the same that EastEnders is the BBC's flasgship TV show) in stark contrast to others.
I would have thought that you, out of everyone on this board, would appreciate that more than most.
Batmanuel
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
I would have thought that you, out of everyone on this board, would appreciate that more than most.
Appreciate what?
sorry i was way past my alcohol tolerance levels when i was posting last night, and i am only on now just to make sure i didn't post anything that i would later regret.
tell you what i will go back and read it again and get back to you
Well, thanks for making me feel like I wasted my time. (
I didn't mean to sound like that.
I think this is very interesting stuff. It is all too easy to let personal preferences get in the way of seeing what is really happening.
What interests me is trying to unpick the WHY behind the WHAT - and then see if any patterns can be extrapolated, how far and under what circumstances. This is what I spend a great deal of my day doing at work - when I am not reading this forum
I think a real study of the sales patterns of a long running character like Spiderman plotted against the backdrop of the marketplace, popular culture, creators etc would be fascinating - but that is my inner marketing geek!
Of course when I agreed with Bats that sales figures were no measure of quality I meant to get across two other things:
1) that they are not ALWAYS a measure of quality
but equally
2) how do you define "quality" above and beyond aesthetic choice in many cases?
Batmanuel
well took the time to read the latest issue of BND, but sorry i still think its crap,
Compared with JMS run, it just pales into insignifiante.
Saving grace is, that its a mephisto mind trick, and just as soon a Our good old Dr Strange gets back from banishment, all should be returned to the real Marvel Universe.
and the only reason i am acually apologizeing, as in saying i am sorry but i still think its crap, is because i like you
I just can not hold my hands up to this, in much the same way as there have been defining runs on comics in the past, i really dont think BND is going to qualify, if anything i believe, long term that it will be viewed as a low point.
i may wrong, i may be right, either way thats my stand on it, but hey, suck it and see truebelivers
but as for sales figures, did you know that toilet paper out sells newspapers
Agghh its the beer, it made me do it
Robin The Boy Wonder
Infidels. All of you.
I think Bats is missing the point about sales figures here. It isn't about how Spider-Man performs in the market to everyone else; it's about how Spider-Man performs against Spider-Man.
Sales are an extremely important factor, if not the most important factor. We have to remember we're discussing the icon of Marvel Comics. Spider-Man must sell well; a higher quality product equals higher sales and a better long term performance.
There are a couple of interesting points recently revealed.
Marvel, at Wizard World, commented that, in general, sales are declining in 2008 when compared to previous years. They gave no explanation as to why this is; they simply stated it. Here's a point for discussion, methinks.
Sales of Amazing Spider-Man only increased when co-ordinated as part of an event or as the event itself. Sales went through the ceiling with the release of Civil War, breaking the 100K barrier for the first time in many years (a decade, I think).
Of course, we then have to bear in mind that comic sales aren't the bread and butter of the industry anymore, are they...?
I think there's a larger debate to be had here - and I'm at work right now so can't start this - but I think we should start a new sales-driven-discussion thread (one that covers every aspect of the industry perhaps) and move this one back to topic. What's springing to my mind here is that there is a debate here that covers far more than just Spider-Man.
Xeall
Stark naked boy wonder!
Quote:
these figures are based upon final retailer orders in North America to Diamond
he he, cant resist name puns. anyway on this i say americans have always been stupid and liked crap comics and hated the good ones. Nextwave being cancelled due to a lack of them 'getting it'.
The other point i have is that there are those that like me who hated BND but are still buying it because its Amazing spider-man. If this seris was crap i would not have bought the friendly or sensational spin offs. however now it is amazing 3 times a month instead making more sales.
I have a point here i'm just not sure i have worded it correctly so let me know. The Gist is kinda amazing has always sold more so release it 3 times a month under poorer quality and you still get the sales.
Is it ironic my ipod is playing 'since you've been gone' right now?
Batmanuel
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
Infidels. All of you.
See now i know I'm i trouble, he called infidel, not a good sign that
Quick Xeall...... RUN
Robin The Boy Wonder
No, Xeall's making perfect sense (for a change).
Bats remains an infidel. Unless of course he can find me the first issue of Avengers/Invaders... then I might change my mind...
Until then... Have at thee, swine!!!
Batmanuel
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
Bats remains an infidel. Unless of course he can find me the first issue of Avengers/Invaders... then I might change my mind
HA
Ive done it. its in your box, Have at thee Batmanuel last seen dancing like a lunatic in a straight jacket trying to eat ice-cream)
and Ive done your Wolverine, double bubble points.
Hallelujah i am fucking saved, no more infidelity things for me
PS, do you want Secret Invasion Front Line #1? no i am being serious.
The force (vodka) is strong in this one
Robin The Boy Wonder
No thanks for Front Line. I've read enough about it to persuade me that it may not be worth the effort.
Same applies to Spider-Man: Secret Invasion. Sure, I know I'm championing Brand New Day here but I can't bring myself to read a tie-in mini that's only been green-lit for the sake of it.
Hm.
Spider-Man.
Bats - what's your take on the collapse of the Spider-marriage. I don't think we've seen your views yet. Or, in other words, if you show me yours, I'll show you mine.
Batmanuel
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
Bats - what's your take on the collapse of the Spider-marriage.
What Spider marriage collapse?
I wasn't aware that there had been one.
Oh you mean the other Spider life that didn't happen.
well they didn't exactly get divorced did they? the relationship was hardly on the verge of collapse, I mean its not like these two had become so estranged that they could no longer be in the same room was it?
Collapse? what collapse.
and being that i don't take anything from BND seriously (or mephistoally) as far as i am concerned, i will just wait until it all gets back to normal
Robin The Boy Wonder
Never going to happen.
There are far too many at Marvel who are anti-marriage. I very much doubt anything will persuade them to undo it.
Even Grant Morrison admitted in an interview on Final Crisis that Marvel had made the right move (albeit in a poorly executed fashion) and that, despite some troubled times in the interim, they should stick to their guns and maintain the new status quo.
Did you know Marvel have been actively trying to undo the marriage since before The Clone Saga...?
So... I think you're in for a looooooooong wait... I got used to it; I think we're all going to have to too.
Robin The Boy Wonder
Batmanuel wrote:
And the pun "in another life" came from the latest AM, you will understand when you read it.
Finally read that issue of ASM 561 you're referring to above.
You do know what the comment actually refers to, don't you...?
It means... Mary Jane remembers everything. Mephisto. Their marriage. Aunt May's shooting. Peter's deal with the Devil. Everything!
Which actually has me concerned... and excited (because that's another prediction I've gotten spot on, including the fact that Mary Jane is not Jackpot).
Batmanuel
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
It means... Mary Jane remembers everything. Mephisto. Their marriage. Aunt May's shooting. Peter's deal with the Devil. Everything!
Sigh.
Which actually has me concerned... and excited (because that's another prediction I've gotten spot on, including the fact that Mary Jane is not Jackpot).
Quote:
And that I'm sure it happened in an another life, so who cares, its like stepping onto the yellow brick road, only to discover that you have trodden in dog shit.
i hope those shoes are not new, i really dont fancy digging the shit out of the tread of new shoes
OK so i am tired an i messed this post up, and i cant be arsed to correct it, sorry, little give and take here,
Imagine all the quotes are in the right pace, (or place) go on, i know you can do it.
Robin The Boy Wonder
What were you still doing awake at 2.24am anyway...?
Don't you have a shop to run...?
Xeall
Come on you can't seriously still like this the latest few plots were laughable.
Ox 'i'll give myself in because i gave my word' WTF!!!!!
Batmanuel
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
What were you still doing awake at 2.24am anyway...?
Above and beyond the call of duty, thats what
Batmanuel
And so it would come to pass, the Holy Church of Wizard has spoken.
Nay,
the people have spoken and the industry standard that is Wizard has listened and reported its finding to the masses.
its official BND SUCKS.
NO its not a joke, its not a Batmanuel rant, for once its really is for real, fandom assembled has spoken, and although it was never really rocket sience to begin with (unless you are a 26 percenter) the vote has been cast, the word has been spoken, and the seminal run by JMS has not been surpassed, not that BND could have come anywhere near close enough to dent JMS's, ah savor that aroma, what is it, i dont know, but it smells good, by Jove tis the Smell of Victory, The Infidel has again Triumphed over those who think that they can mess with one of the worlds most loved Icon.
So in true statistic style, hey Ho lets Go !
Should Spider-Man be married to MJ?
80% fan poll say, YES.
Organic or Mechanical Web Shooters?
51% say Organic.
Red & Blue, or Black Costume?
69% say Red & Blue.
Better Book, Ultimate or Amazing?
67% say Ultimate.
Who should be Venom, Brock or MacGargan?
88% say Brock.
Who should be Spider-Man's true love, Mary Jane, Or Gwen?
72% say MJ.
News Flash:
(Anti Venom? are you taking the Piss? or did you get a 5 year old in to think this up?)
Should Aunt May have Died
68% say Yes.
on the current creators and especially Steve Wacker, (As Joe has passed the Buck) are they Evil or Good.
99% say Evil. (Boy Wonder was the 0ne percent) oh he is soooo cruel.
Bless his cotton socks, i can think of worse and less reliable people to be stranded on a desert island with
So there you have it. its Official, Wizard Says so, and being as there isn't another industry rag that comes close to the readership and impact that Wizard has (Comics International take note) then it must have some validity, Yes?
Xeall
ok, im happy about this cos someone might sit up and do something about it. Hopefully a big name writter (thats good) will pick spiderman up. Garth ennis just finished the punisher didnt he????
but something i have to mention here
Quote:
Red & Blue, or Black Costume?
69% say Red & Blue.
as much as i love the black costume and loved back in black aswell as the original huge run, it is all about the red and blue. Only the fools would vote otherwise.
Quote:
Organic or Mechanical Web Shooters?
51% say Organic.
again im an old fan and kinda would say mech but organic had worked theire way into the plot now and i find 'oh noes imma outta web for the 50th time this week and its only panel 3' a tad annoying and other than that the web shooters don't make that much of a differnce to the plot, hes spider-man he needs webs so having villains take them away seems silly these days. this conversation just came into my head actually
'could we bring back web shooters?'
'WHY?'
'Cos otherwise this really orginal story to frame spidey wont work'
'We would be stupid not to do this'
Quote:
Who should be Spider-Man's true love, Mary Jane, Or Gwen?
72% say MJ.
ok true believers just cos you dont remember her cos your to young or stupid does not make you right. Gwen all the way, doesnt mean he doesnt love MJ its just frikkin fact.
Quote:
Should Aunt May have Died
68% say Yes.
i.e should OMD and by proxy BND not have happened. Suprised this number isnt higher, but then there are people that want everything resolved withput death or unhappy endings, you know like all of BND
XEALL AWAY!!!!!
Batmanuel
And we are off... the debate begins anew, i hope
Some valid points our resident Xeall plays here, and a well thought out reply, (well nearly)
Red and Blue vs Black.
I dont think that you have to be a complete fool to vote Black.
It had its place, in its time, and the back in black was an angry statement, thus fitting, why on earth would Peter put on the suit that freaked his wife out so much in the past, (she had previously been attacked by Venom)
Organic all the way, it is just a natural progression and evolution of the character, being able to mix a solution in you bed room that is stronger than steel, able to take the weight of a human, and conveniently dissolve,
Is at best, nonsense, it would make much more sense to have inherited the web along with the proportional strength, and no, you cannot insist that it comes out of his arse, this is a comic book OK.
Still the saving grace is that the escape button is there, Blame it on Mephistio, it never happened, it was a spell which in real time lasted for one second, Doctor Strange comes in, casts a heavy duty magic thingy, which last for four issues mini series, battles for the sanity of the Spider. Battle won, flash back to the Hospital, Aunt May dies, Peter cries, MJ says she would have lived ...."in another life" and,
Bing Bang Bosh, Mephisto defeated,
"NO you have foiled my cunning and deadly plan Strange, may a Pox befall thee."
On the Subject of MJ v Gwen.
Sorry It has to be MJ, unless you are into Necrophilia ? besides Norman Osborn has been there and you wouldn't want to mix yours with his now would you. Yuck!
you only have a soft spot for the Dirty little slapper because you never had her. but would you have actually married her?
Mind you, i wouldn't mind going back in time to find out how different things would have been,
if you know what i mean.
And should have Aunt May have died,
well DUH yes, as it stands now, all they have done is turn Peter Parker into the Forty Year old Virgin who lives at home with his four hundred year old Aunt, Jesus fucking Christ, just get rid of her, she can still have a presence in the book, just like Ben Parker has through the years, you are not officially dead if someone remembers you
Well that it from me, for Now.
We should start a Suggestion box for a new writer on the Amazing Spider-Man.
Xeall says Garth Ennis,
any advances on that?
Xeall
huston we have a problem, get me a strait jacket and alot of morphine and check me in for the long haul..................................i liked issue 568
i need help
Batmanuel
Xeall:
Quote:
i liked issue 568
See, now one of three things could have happened here.
1: The writers of BND took a day off of the stupid pills.
2: Yusif had a day on the stupid pills
3 you were actually holding a completely different comic in you hand while you were reading it. but didn't realise.
4: you are just taking the piss, either that or you have realised that you do in fact love The Boy Wonder and want to have his babies
Well Tuff, you will have to fight Anne for him...
and can we watch.
and can you do it in mud
and... did i just say that out loud? oh bloody fucking hell.
MustopthinkingoutloudMustopthinkingoutloudMustopthinkingoutloud
Reaper
Actually episode 568 wasn't too bad because of the Thunderbolts side of things. But it did piss me off that Osborn doesn't remember who Parker is?!
Robin The Boy Wonder
Interesting find.
Batmanuel wrote:
And so it would come to pass, the Holy Church of Wizard has spoken.
Nay,
the people have spoken and the industry standard that is Wizard has listened and reported its finding to the masses.
its official BND SUCKS.
I find it interesting to note you cast Wizard as the industry standard; I suspect most people would potentially nominate either Newsarama or Comic Book Resources as a better source. Wizard has dated in the fact it offers news that is already widely available on an internet-based comic forum.
Please don't think I'm knocking the source, or its results, I'm just questioning your use of the term industry standard for Wizard. It's a separate debate, methinks, in the same vein as Comics International. If we can still call it that, I guess.
Batmanuel wrote:
Should Spider-Man be married to MJ?
80% fan poll say, YES.
I can understand why anyone would vote as such; however, I firmly believe a single Peter Parker is better than a married one. There is far more story potential with a single Peter, not the least of which being in that you can have offer far more romantic tension with the character; something you cannot do with a married character. Or, I should say, something you should not do with Peter Parker, at least.
So, I'm in the 20% category.
Batmanuel wrote:
Organic or Mechanical Web Shooters?
51% say Organic.
Narrow one this.
I vote for Organic too. Don't get me wrong, the mechancial web shooters made for compulsive story-telling in its time although that time has certainly passed. Of course, I should point out that it's Paul Jenkins who was responsible for the organic web shooters - not JMS.
Batmanuel wrote:
Red & Blue, or Black Costume?
69% say Red & Blue.
Well, DUH! The black costume served its purpose in terms of story twenty years ago. Incidentally, I agree wholeheartedly with JMS when he stated last year that, for Spider-Man, the ending of Civil War (Aunt May's shooting) should have led directly into One More Day. Back In Black was created specifically for one purpose as far as I can tell - to offer a black-costumed Spider-Man in advance of Spider-Man 3.
Batmanuel wrote:
Better Book, Ultimate or Amazing?
67% say Ultimate.
Can't comment on this one; however, the comparison should be placed in some context in that one deals with a teenaged Peter Parker and the other an adult Peter Parker.
Batmanuel wrote:
Who should be Venom, Brock or MacGargan?
88% say Brock.
Again, DUH!. Blame Mark Millar who introduced the possibility of having someone else be Venom other than Eddie Brock. My only concern with Brock is that he may have outlived his usefulness as Venom. The best Venom stories were told by David Michelinie in the late 80's & early 90's. Since then, the character has been over-saturated and somewhat muddled. Dare I suggest that a back-to-basics approach is what may be needed to reunite the symbiote with Brock...?
Batmanuel wrote:
Who should be Spider-Man's true love, Mary Jane, Or Gwen?
72% say MJ.
This should be taken more in context of the time (both in comic terms and era) that Peter shared with each girl. I agree with Xeall. I agree with Bats. The truth is, both represent the two ladies with whom Peter has found true love. Personally, I think the question is slightly foolish.
Batmanuel wrote:
News Flash:
(Anti Venom? are you taking the Piss? or did you get a 5 year old in to think this up?)
Yeah, the idea has me concerned too. However, I have always argued that we should await the execution of the idea before we slam it. There were a large number of people who were ripping the piss out of the idea of a 'Young Avengers' when the idea was first suggested. Look at how that turned out.
Although Anti-Venom still seems funny. And not 'haha' funny either.
Batmanuel wrote:
Should Aunt May have Died
68% say Yes.
I agree. She outlived her purpose before. She should have stayed dead after the beautifully written Amazing Spider-Man 400 (1994/5).
***
Still, good find, Bats.
I may be in the minority when it comes to Brand New Day; however, this is a good find sparking some debate. I have some thoughts on where Brand New Day may be failing but this is for another time - I have some tiles to grout.
New writers? Not Garth Ennis; I don't think Spider-Man would be a good match for his particular writing style.
Mark Waid? Jeph Loeb?
Ah, waitasec... how's this for a creative team...?
Joss Whedon & Cassaday.
Batmanuel
Reaper:
Quote:
But it did piss me off that Osborn doesn't remember who Parker is?!
Bwa ha ha ha ha....
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
I find it interesting to note you cast Wizard as the industry standard;
Well it sure as hell ain't Comics international as for newsaramwho, digital dont count. and comic book resources is that a magazine? but as it stands, for setting a standard that others follow, Wizard is, good or bad, the industry standard, in much the same way as overstreet was back in the day. but lets split hairs, Wizard is very much a credible representation of the industry which manages to publish on schedule, month after month, with fresh news, articles, and all in a format i can sit down anywhere with.
Boy Wonder:
Quote:
There is far more story potential with a single Peter,
Remind me to remind you of this statement after ten or so years of being Married yourself
Peter got Married, he stopped living at home with his Aunt, (ages ago) he became a Man, as apposed to a forty year old virgin, single, and living at home worked for an early Spider, and also works for an Ultimate Spider, but not for our all grown up Mr Parker Esq. you just Cannot turn the clock back, as much as we all would like too.
on a final note, i love my wife, should some fuckpig come along and tell me, oh, by the way, you are now single, i would reach into the very Pitt of his (or her being) grab anything that came to hand and rip the bastard inside out, (at this point i must place a health warning, as in, i have had fourteen pints of larger warning, so please bear with me
Boy Wonder:
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I vote for Organic too.
Yeah, me too
Boy Wonder:
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Paul Jenkins who was responsible for the organic web shooters - not JMS.
Seconded. but although at the time it was suggested that the story was nothing more that an excuse to match the webbing to the Movie version, it was a good story, a very credible story and finally one that even without the movies made a lot of sense in the development of the character.
Boy Wonder:
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Well, DUH! The black costume served its purpose in terms of story twenty years ago.
Hey, what can i say, it was a question that was put out to Mr Public, i just reported the answer.
But i do belive that you have got it in a nut shell when you said twenty years ago
Boy Wonder:
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however, the comparison should be placed in some context in that one deals with a teenaged Peter Parker and the other an adult Peter Parker.
or a Teenager vs a foutyyearoldvirginlivingathomewithhismumandprowlingthestreetsafterdarkdressedasaspiderinordertofirightenhispreyintosubmission.
Boy Wonder:
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Again, DUH!.
Well excuse me for stating the obvious Did i metion that Tony Stark is a Dick Head?
Boy Wonder
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I agree with Xeall. I agree with Bats.
Good Boy
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Although Anti-Venom still seems funny. And not 'haha' funny either.
See, we are not so far apart when it counts are we
Boy Wonder:
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Still, good find, Bats.
Thanks Mate, at the end of the day, i knew i could count on you to see the wood beyond the trees. and a thumbs up from you is a worthy thumbs up indeed
Reaper
I can give you one/two words to prove why the current run of Spider-Man can be really shit....... I give you 'Anti-Venom'
Oh dear lord
waffle
Well, as of a few weeks ago, I've taken Spidey off my pull list. Although at first I enjoyed BND, I just got bored of it.
You know how the X-Files had it's ongoing mythology storyline, and those episodes were great, and then there were the daft monster-of-the-week episodes? Well after a couple of months, BND just felt like those monster-of-the-week episodes, but without the cooler stuff to redeem it.
I get it, I understand why Marvel decided to take the dark stuff out and make it the series more 'fun' - they needed to re-engage with the kids - but it just wasn't for me. Had the interesting subtexts remained and the characters retained some kind of depth, then maybe I would have carried on getting it, but what the hell.... there's always Kick Ass for us big boys.
Robin The Boy Wonder
Thanks Bats.
Like I said, good find.
My only comment about the marriage is that... well... the idea of marriage absolutely fucking scares me. Maybe 10 years from now, I can comment on the virtues of marriage... unless, by then, I've made a deal with Mephisto to erase it...
I still support a single Peter Parker. I agree with everything you said but, in order for the character to remain truly timeless, I think being single may be the best approach. After all, the next step in Peter's married journey would be children. To be honest, as much as I love Eliot, I really don't want to read a Spider-Man comic where the titular character is raising his child. That doesn't mean to say though that I don't miss the marriage.
Anyhow, Anti-Venom. The idea still scares me, although I haven't read beyond the first part of New Ways To Die (haven't been to the shop to buy the later issues).
Moving on... and why Brand New Day (I think we can still call it that) will ultimately fail.
Firstly, I think the three-times monthly approach is the right approach. If managed properly, this should be a strong seller and should sell far more copies than the previous three separate titles did. Presently, BND Amazing sells more than the previous Amazing, Friendly Neighbourhood & Sensational titles did in total per month, with the prediction recently made by several American retailers on Newsarama that the current Amazing will only sell, in monthly totals, slightly more in number than the previous.
However, what has me concerned is that I think the industry, and its fans, have all moved forward over the last 10 years.
Amazing Spider-Man currently reminds me of the writing approach from the early 90's when the marriage was still fresh. There were several talented writers on board the four titles (not to mention artists); however, there were far too many stories that ultimately did nothing to move the character forward. Smaller stories. There were larger stories (always involving Venom back then); however, these would only really come about once a year or so.
The current approach reminds me of this.
The first four months aside, Amazing Spider-Man then simply stood still for some months with the far smaller stories in scope being published. It wasn't really until Kraven's First Hunt and New Ways To Die that this approach changed.
The industry seems to be at a point now where big, all-encompassing, all-changing stories seem to be the norm month-in & month-out. Perhaps I'm wrong; however, I'm given a real sense of the epic when reading titles like Mighty Avengers, New Avengers, Captain America etc. I also see this elsewhere in the X-Men titles too and I think it's something that may be needed in Spider-Man.
This was also something JMS handled quite well. Even the 'smaller' stories felt important and moved the character forward.
Don't get me wrong. I'm enjoying the current Amazing Spider-Man, although I am nervous about Anti-Venom and the solicits post-New Ways To Die. November in particular looks like a month to be avoided as far as our favourite (albeit beleagured) Web Head is concerned.
I'm not sure what it is but there is something missing from Spider-Man at the moment. It's not the marriage. Now that the marriage is undone, it should stay that way. Reversing this would only make matters far worse in my opinion and alienate the readership still further (for those who are currently alienated from the product).
Ah well, whether you love it or hate it - or simply aren't bothered about Spider-Man - I do look forward to the day when we all agree that Spider-Man is great again.
Batmanuel
Boy Wonder:
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the idea of marriage absolutely fucking scares me. Maybe 10 years from now,
My dear Boy Wonder, a word of advice, don't be scared, there is nothing to fear, you have already committed yourself in a much more important and permanent way, by having child, however, the ring on the finger is a very strong indication to your partner that you mean to stay, and at the end of the day, if you want them to stay, then make the commitment once and for all, dont delay, do it today, whisk her away, invite only the very closest of family (keep it to 10 or less) and make it special for you and her, not a free piss up in order to keep face.
All in all, and if it was meant to be, you WILL not regret it, a Woman needs to know where she stands, as does a Man.
Oh, and if you think i am speaking out of line, or have completely misunderstood your sentiment (wouldn't be the first time ) just tell me to piss of and mind my own
PS
It scared the shit outta me too at the time, thats why i can now make this statement in hindsight. should you ever need to discuss this on a one to one, just say
Boy Wonder:
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Firstly, I think the three-times monthly approach is the right approach.
Didn't D.C. try this with Action Comics way back when? it failed.
I like the idea of one good Spider-Man Title rather than one good one and two mediocre titles, what we have got with all of its different writers and artists putting in there page rates is at best one mediocre title.
Boy Wonder:
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Amazing Spider-Man currently reminds me of the writing approach from the early 90's when the marriage was still fresh. There were several talented writers on board the four titles (not to mention artists); however, there were far too many stories that ultimately did nothing to move the character forward. Smaller stories. There were larger stories (always involving Venom back then); however, these would only really come about once a year or so.
Yep, agree with this.
Boy Wonder:
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It wasn't really until Kraven's First Hunt and New Ways To Die that this approach changed.
To little to late.
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I do look forward to the day when we all agree that Spider-Man is great again.
And me too, But hang on, Spider-Man is Great, it the Tossers controlling his life that need to be slapped, now where did i put that BIG stick
Robin The Boy Wonder
I think August 2008's sales figures may just prove my theory right (I also discussed this with Bats last Saturday).
I wonder if, perhaps, Amazing Spider-Man will experience sales spikes similar to these in the future.
It's no secret that, since Brand New Day began, sales have steadily declined on Amazing Spider-Man. There have been exceptions, usually whenever the next writer starts the next story-arc; however, as a rule, sales have declined.
We then expereience the next 'big' Spider-Man story: New Ways To Die. Not only is this an epic six-parter (the first in the BND era), it's written by Dan Slott (arguably the Head Writer on ASM), features the return of the ever-popular John Romita JR, re-establishes Spider-Man firmly within the Marvel Universe by guest-starring the Thunderbolts, as well as promising the latest Spider-Man vs. Green Goblin showdown. Yep, this is a reasonably big story.
Naturally, sales will increase with the first chapter.
And then begin its decline all over again.
I feel this is just how it's going to be for the foreseeable future, with ASM enjoying sales spikes whenever a new 'big' story begins before resuming its decline.
I wonder how dramatic the next sales decline will be. I've enjoyed Amazing Spider-Man, but even I worry after reading the solicitations post-New Ways To Die. It all feels very... filler-ish. Sure, Mark Waid joins Spider-Man, as does Joe Kelly. Dan Slott returns late in the year, promising to start answering those questions raised following One More Day, not the least of which concerns the marriage (although this will be answered somewhat definitively in ASM 600 by all accounts).
I want to be excited. But I'm struggling.
I want Amazing Spider-Man to sell well. I'd love to convert people to how I'm feeling about the current direction. But I know it won't and I know I can't. So I'm concerned, and August's sales figures only seem to validate them.
Thoughts, anyone?
Reaper
I got hold of New Ways to Die as I thought it might be a fairly good storyline and I would put 'on hold' my animosity towards ASM. Sadly parts of the storyline are crap, like AntiVenom (who the fuck thought that was a good idea). But some points are fairly well done and the Thunderbolts are pretty enjoyable throughout (so far).
It does seem that writers need a kick to jump start some good storylines rather slightly tired bad guy archetypes and Anti-Venom (yes I am going to keep shoehorning that in). It's a sad fact that ASM really needs a new writer like Brubaker (because CapA is still great) and won't hold a lot attention until they get someone new on board..... and they bring back the marriage!
Batmanuel
Reaper:
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(who the fuck thought that was a good idea).
That was the Janitor's son, he was sneaked into work by his mum as she couldn't afford daycare, and although she normally kept the child restrained and gagged in an unused detergent cupboard, the child escaped, got hold of an artists computer while he was at the coffee vending machine and inverted a picture of Venom the artist was working on, with that the editor in chief walked past and said, Brilliant who's this then, the artist was now returning to his desk, (the child had fallen from the seat, was knocked unconscious and had rolled under the table)
the artist looked at the screen an said it ain't nothing to do with Vernon. (Vernon being his name)
The editor being hard of hearing as well as stupid replied, ANTI VENOM, brilliant, STOP THE PRESS.
So there you have it, a small child did it, and a small mind thought it was good, Jesus Christ, and with so much real talent out there waiting to be discovered.
Hope this helps clear things up for you
Reaper
Jesus Christ bats, now THAT is inside information.... I'm impressed and thank you for clearing that up for me, I'm slightly less angry at Marvel now...... slightly
Batmanuel
We do our best
Glad you appreciate the lengths we go to here at Whatever
as he ducks for cover 
