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League of Extraordinary Gentlemen 1910

with a heavy heart we have to announce that The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen 1910 has been delayed
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Web of Fear

Considering that the Black Dossier was finally published over one year after DC originally solicited it, and no one in the UK has the Dossier anyway, League fans ought to be able to cope with a month's delay.
Raien

I hope this issue is more like the first two volumes rather than The Black Dossier. The Black Dossier was too high-brow for me, and I didn't appreciate the references.
admin

more delays?

ON A SLOW BOAT FROM CHINA…. That’s the official line from Diamond Distributors for the delay in supplying copies to UK customers, what delay you may well ask? that’s exactly what I have been asking.

Gosh Comics had them on the real release date of April the 29th, copies were available at the Bristol show, but I have been told that our copies are at sea on a ship from China,.

Is someone taking the F**king P**s?? or is this just another example of palm greasing and a complete disregard for the Fan boys and retailers who made the name Alan Moore a huge money  spinner to begin with.
I would like to take this opportunity to say sorry to all the customers who in good faith advance ordered this book from us, and will offer a full refund to any who couldn’t wait for the slow boat from China to arrive and have purchased it elsewhere, just bring in the preorder slip and the refund will be made.

I can assure you of one thing, someone is taking the P**s and it isn’t Whatever Comics or any other poor unfortunate retail outlet that put its trust in fair trading practises !
Batmanuel

Raien:
Quote:
I hope this issue is more like the first two volumes rather than The Black Dossier. The Black Dossier was too high-brow for me, and I didn't appreciate the references.

Indeed, so much so, i couldn't be bothered reading most of it, still the pictures were pretty,
i liked the pictures Laughing
Hey Zeus

I don't get why people didn't like the black dossier, i thought it was great.

I don't understand why a comic being high brow and having references not everyone would get, would be a reason for disliking it.

After all Stan Lee was once told to use less complicated words in his comics.  His reply was whats the problem with a kid having to pick up a dictioanry once and while.  

Don't be put off by intelligence in comics, just think of it as a way of broadening your mental horizons
Raien

Hey Zeus wrote:
I don't get why people didn't like the black dossier, i thought it was great.

I don't understand why a comic being high brow and having references not everyone would get, would be a reason for disliking it.

After all Stan Lee was once told to use less complicated words in his comics.  His reply was whats the problem with a kid having to pick up a dictioanry once and while.  

Don't be put off by intelligence in comics, just think of it as a way of broadening your mental horizons


That's a ridiculous comparison. Expanding one's vocabulary is important for communication; it has practical purposes in adult life that not only assists learning but impresses employers. Learning obscure literary references is a hobby. Whatever you learn from books like The Black Dossier is more-or-less restricted to that hobby. Because let's face it, unless you have an innate interest in the subject material, you aren't going to read and replicate it in other forms.

In other words, I dislike The Black Dossier for the same reason I would dislike reading a book about ornithology; I do not care and I do not see the value of caring.
CatFang

You know, Raien,  - this forum has always been a pretty civilised place.

Sure, there have been disagreements, even arguments in the past, but the tone has generally been kept quite civil.

There are only 2 forums I really use on the internet, precisely because I think this kind of agressive, unsubstantiated "opinioneering" (yes, I made up a word to use on the internet - language is living and mutable, as is grammar, and my aim is communication not some abstract concept of "correctness"), so sue me, is really starting to put me off coming round here.

Everyone should express their opinion. But it is opinion. Step back a bit and lose the attitude, it's really not necessary, and certainly not impressive.

It's unususal to see someone come into a place and be quite so insensitive to the tone and etiquette.

I know Bats hoped you would "bring some controversy" but, frankly, I feel there is a difference between an eloquently expressed genuinely interesting alternative opinion that gives a fresh insight to the subject under discussion, and a pissing contest.

Sound to me like there is some growing up needed.

Or maybe I am just getting too old for this shit.
Raien

Okay, I clearly overreacted to Hey Zeus's post. To me, it came off as a little condescending to suggest that people's intelligence is somehow dependant on learning obscure facts. Perhaps that was the wrong reading, and for that I apologise.

But to be fair, I do not take part in "pissing contests". I do not make personal insults; I just address the comment as I see it.
Hey Zeus

Learning about the world outside your own little bubble is always a good thing whether it be learning about the world, learning about obscure references or learning a new word.  A little bit of extra knowledge can never hurt (i'm not being sarcastic or condescending I actually believe that crap I just wrote.
I didn't mean to offend you Raien, I was not personally attacking you, just your reasons for disliking the Black Dossier.
I think that the references are a good addition to a well crafted story, but if you don't get the references it doesnt change the fact it is well written and well drawn.


Again no offence meant and hope we can put it all behind us
Raien

Hey Zeus wrote:
Learning about the world outside your own little bubble is always a good thing whether it be learning about the world, learning about obscure references or learning a new word.  A little bit of extra knowledge can never hurt (i'm not being sarcastic or condescending I actually believe that crap I just wrote.


The problem is that this is not practical. The reason why we have bubbles is because we do not have the time to develop a million interests, nor do we necessarily care about developing them if they have no emotional impact upon us. I, for one, am personally interested in storytelling in the mediums of film, television, video games and comics. That for me, is more than enough information to deal with without feeling obliged to research old literary references that I know will serve no long term purpose in developing myself as an individual.

Quote:
I think that the references are a good addition to a well crafted story, but if you don't get the references it doesnt change the fact it is well written and well drawn.


Doesn't it? The problem with a lack of accessibility is that it breaks any meaningful emotional response to a narrative. You might better understand the context through research, but it still doesn't change the fact that when you see two characters talk about things you don't properly comprehend, the result is that the interaction feels alien and not emotionally relatable. It's not necessarily good writing if it doesn't engross the reader.
Hey Zeus

[/quote]I, for one, am personally interested in storytelling in the mediums of film, television, video games and comics. That for me, is more than enough information to deal with without feeling obliged to research old literary references that I know will serve no long term purpose in developing myself as an individual.
Quote:

First of researching old literary references is always has a purpose and any knowledge helps to develope you as an individual. its expanding your horizons which for a writer is a great thing to do.  It's like as a musician its great for me to listen to old music because it informs me about the music i play and inspires me to write new stuff,  and it's the same in writing.
Second, you don't need to get the references to appreciate the story as it is.  I knew nothing about Captain Nemo when I first read the league but it didn't detract from my enjoyment of it.  When you read a marvel comic and they make a reference to another marvel story line you havn't read, does it make the comic unreadable, or detract from the quality of the story writing? no.  You can still enjoy a wolverine comic without having to read the avengers, even though they will probably reference one or the other.  

Raien

Hey Zeus wrote:
First of researching old literary references is always has a purpose and any knowledge helps to develope you as an individual.its expanding your horizons which for a writer is a great thing to do.  It's like as a musician its great for me to listen to old music because it informs me about the music i play and inspires me to write new stuff,  and it's the same in writing.


You seem to have missed my point. If you have a single interest, it's very easy to develop your knowledge on that interest to its full potential. But if you have multiple interests, as I have, then there is simply not enough time to attain that same level of knowledge with all of them.

Within the last few years, I have been learning the comprehensive histories of three separate literary mediums as well as the history of politics and general culture on top of that. When you tell me that I should "broaden my horizons", I have to ask "Isn't this broad enough?" You could say "it's never broad enough", but then I presume you haven't broadened your horizons to both the comprehensive histories of films AND video games, have you?

But we're getting off track. The problem I have with your argument is that you don't account for the relativity of importance. All facts are not all equal in importance. Some are much more relevant to people than others, and by choosing the most obscure irrelevant information as a basis for the story, it's an uphill struggle to make most people care.

Quote:
Second, you don't need to get the references to appreciate the story as it is.  I knew nothing about Captain Nemo when I first read the league but it didn't detract from my enjoyment of it.  When you read a marvel comic and they make a reference to another marvel story line you havn't read, does it make the comic unreadable, or detract from the quality of the story writing? no.  You can still enjoy a wolverine comic without having to read the avengers, even though they will probably reference one or the other.


Black Dossier, without knowing the references, felt very limited in terms of content and characterisation, which is why it has had such a mixed reception from the public. The people who liked Black Dossier have most prominently said that they appreciate the literary references, and hence the book has been defined as inaccessible to other audiences.
CatFang

Raien wrote:
relativity of importance. All facts are not all equal in importance. Some are much more relevant to people than others,


Isn't that the real point though?


There is no objective truth as to what facts are/are not important. It is all subjective and contextual.


As with opinions.

I'm sure we've all got "specialist subjects" we have spent years on. Whether any of these are more "of use" to humanity and more worthy of time and effort than others when we are discussing artistic media is an interesting, but very different debate.

I like to experience novel things that open my eyes (and ears!) to new things I haven't enountered before, and see where they take me. A lot go nowhere - but I want to at least know enough to decide I am not interested. I know lots of people don't.

All that happens as you learn more is you that realise how much there is still to learn.

Personally I agree with Hey Zeus that understanding what went before is illuminating and inspirational in a creative and a psychological sense. But then one of my "comprehensive histories" is Anglo Saxon poetry, so I guess I would.

Anyway - back to BD

There were things I liked and things that I didn't about BD.  I resented the feeling of being "talked down to" that I thought came across - eg "I can write a pastiche of Shakespeare or Beat poetry and not really put that much effort in to getting it right, but I kind of despise most of my audience as stupid creatures who won't have read the originals anyway so they won't know". I think we deserved more respect, and hence more research.

I don't know if this was the intention, or the thought process, of course, but mixing the results with things AM has said interviews this is what I felt. It's been pointed out to me before that AM often speaks with a "twinkle in his eye" even when sounding very serious, though, so I try not to be too prissy about it and focus on what I liked about it.

I loved the playfulness and the sheer postmodern joy of mixing it all up.
Admittedly, this made the reading experience more like a treasure hunt game than a story. I kind of see it in the same literary space as The Silmarillion. Almost like a sourcebook. It was an interesting experiment, like a lot of Alan's Moore's work. It doesn't all work all of the time - but I love his bravery and ambition with the form.

I do think it was marketed badly, so that a lot of people's expectations of what they were buying were not met - so they felt they had wasted their money on something they would not otherwise have bought. That always makes them cross Smile

If you don't find literary references fasincating and rewarding then BD is defnitely not the book for you. Same as, with my lack of interest in the MU, Final Crisis is not the book for me.

Trying to produce art that appeals to eveyone just leads to blandness and mediocrity - and no one wants that!
Hey Zeus

I entirley agree with Catfang excpet that I don't think you have to love literary references to enjoy BD, they just add to the enjoyment.

Catfang really siad all their needs to be said in the argument, except about these so called 'obscure' references.  Some of which are

Big Brother - From the world famouse George Orwell book 1984

Jimmy - a young spy who is a pastiche on James Bond, famous in movies and the literary world

Emma Night - Who later becomes Emma Peel from the T.V show The Avengers the longet running espionage T.V series in English language T.V

A William Shakepseare play - We all know Shakespeare

Jeeves and Wooster - From the famous P.G Wodehouse books and the T.V series staring Stephen FRy and Hugh Laurie

All these are main references in the book and are not obscure in the slightest, even some of the ones I left out such as the 'Crazy Wide Forever story' written in the style of Jack Kerouac and a charcter from a H.P Lovecraft are relativley well known
Web of Fear

Hey Zeus wrote:
All these are main references in the book and are not obscure in the slightest, even some of the ones I left out such as the 'Crazy Wide Forever story' written in the style of Jack Kerouac and a charcter from a H.P Lovecraft are relativley well known


Also Fireball XL-5, the Gerry Anderson "Supermarionation" show.

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