Has Spider-man replaced Superman?

Raien · Has Spider-man replaced Superman?

I've been told numerous times that Superman is the icon that defines superheroes, because he was one of the first real superheroes and he represents an ideal about an average man who can do good deeds for humanity with his powers. But as I read more about Superman's adventures, I can't help but feel that Superman has for the most part abandoned the tradition of a human saving humans by developing a presence in cosmic storytelling and fighting massive monster/alien villains.

And since his departure from tradition in the 1940/1950s, I find it interesting that Marvel created Spider-man, a character with an almost identical background to Superman (shy persona, doting adopted parents, job at a newspaper) who very quickly becomes the world's most popular superhero. Part of me wonders if the focus on human stories is what drove both Superman and then Spider-man into the public consciousness, and that what currently holds Superman back from popularity is a general ignorance of this important element.

Reaper

One of the things that a lot of people don't like about Superman is that he is basically a god and realistically nothing should stand in his way (besides kryptonite) so these people find him boring.

Batmanuel

The one thing that Superman has is the S in a Shield.
this is instantly recognizable world wide, it breaks all language barriers, and is recognized by all races, show an eskimo a golden shield with an S in it chances are he will say SUPERMAN, it is this symbol above all that is iconic, if DC were to drop the Superman Logo on the comic and replace it with just the shield i doubt that it would make an ounce of difference to sales, in fact it may help sales in some foreign countries so powerful is the brand.

You just don't get the same impact with a black Spider.

But you are right about the parallels between the two characters in so far as they both work for papers.. blah, blah, blah.

even as a young child i noted parallels between many Marvel and DC characters, we had Superman and Spider-man, the Flash and Quicksilver, Hawkeye and the Green Arrow, JLA and Avengers, and so on. what separated these was the company's approach and the different branding, the Marvel comics being in its time far more contemporary than the DC comics in subject matter and less condescending to its readership.
times change and styles progress and today Spider Man is the single most licensed character in the world, this is fact, however as for iconic i feel the the shield has it.

Longshot

I would agree to an extent that Spider-man has taken the popular culture matel from Superman in a lot of the world now. This being down to the fact that the Spider-man films are some of the most popular movies at the moment [not to my taste, but I can't ignore it], and the main outlet for Superman at the moment is in the guise of Dawson's Creek, where the symbol isn't even used, neither the name.

I do agree however that as merely a symbol Superman still stands head and sholders above Spidey. For the people who don't watch the films or TV shows then they will still side with Superman.

Robin The Boy Wonder

I think Superman remains the true comic book icon, both within the industry and the mainstream, non-comic-book-reading, audience.

Yes, the 'S' shield is very iconic, and very likely recognised in the same way that almost everyone alive has heard of David Beckham at some point. Why they recognise the 'S' will differ from person to person, whether it be through experiencing the comic book or the films, particularly the Richard Donner ones.

Spider-Man, however, is also an icon, albeit in a slightly different fashion. A black spider is only a black spider and isn't the iconic symbol the 'S' shield is; however, I wonder if, as a character, Spider-Man isn't more interesting to a modern-day audience.

Peter Parker is a real-life character, one who we can all relate to, whether on a major or minor scale. He has girlfriend issues, is persecuted by alleged superiors, suffers from various ailment and has close family who dote on him constantly. Haven't we all wanted, at some stage in our lives, the opportunity to break free and swing through the skies with nary a care in the world? We can relate to Peter Parker and, when he pulls on the mask, we can enjoy the experience of Spider-Man with him.

Please bear in mind that, in both the comics and films, Peter Parker is the principal character who just so happens to be Spider-Man.

Contrast this to Superman. Clark Kent isn't Superman. Superman is a God pretending to be Clark Kent, a superhuman being who, while raised by an all-American family, can never hide from what he truly is. Superman is one of the most difficult characters to relate to as we can never truly place ourselves in his standing.

So, my reply is that Spider-Man is easier to translate to a modern-day audience and is therefore the more popular of the two; however, Superman remains the industry's icon, standing head and shoulders above all others.

Raien

I think the point I'm making is this.

Superman used to be both a symbolic icon and a character icon. But when he lost that character icon, Spider-man made it his own. Is it possible that Superman could take back that character icon in order to give new life to the Superman series?

Web of Fear

But as everyone else has pointed out, Superman hasn't lost his iconic status. Superman, and the "S" shield, are recognizable by people the world over, most of whom will have never read a comic in their life.

Your perception of the current state of Superman comics, has nothing to do with that status.

Raien

Robin The Boy Wonder

Ah, I think this has more to do with the character's actual popularity in today's industry and, perhaps, his relevance in today's comic book market also.

I remember reading an interview with Joe Quesada about two years ago where he commented that Superman could very easily go the same way as The Phantom in the next thirty years. He suggested that many characters had evolved over the years, citing several Marvel characters as an example, from how they were first conceived in the 60's & 70's into the modern-day characters we presently follow. The important aspect in evolving these characters is not to betray who they actually are at their very core and, instead, enhance upon it.

Quesada suggested that Superman hadn't evolved over the years and that he was still essentially the same as he was thirty or forty years ago (the marriage to Lois Lane being the only exception).

I think he had a point.

Superman is essentially standing still as a character. There have been occasions when there has been a real change to Superman's status quo (Death of Superman & The Blue Superman events spring to mind); however, after each storyline had ended, he always returned to that original, classic, status. Superman is barely affected by change to and around him in his world.

Of course, there may be varying reasons for this.

One is that few comic book characters stray from their original set-up. Spider-Man is an obvious example here where his marriage was effectively ret-conned 18 months ago (to differing levels of success, dependent on who you ask) to that of a young 20-something, single character. That said, he has evolved into a young man after his introduction as a high-school teenage. His role is no longer Flash Thompson's victim and doting on his beloved Aunt; instead, the focus is more on how he is affected by his young adult supporting cast.

Superman, however, seems to be standing still.

And, of course, it's hard to empathise with a character who is essentially a God. The only Superman story I've read in recent times was All Star Superman, a comic book that celebrated Superman's God-like status rather than attempt him to be more... human.

Raien

Well said, Boy Wonder. You've hit the nail on the head.

People are quite happy with the evolution of a character so long as it respects recognisable character traits; that's one reason why All-Star Batman & Robin was so reviled.

What I particularly like about Peter Parker's evolution was that it reflected a movement away from the dated geek stereotype into a more fleshed-out character that reflected his strength of character as Spider-man. The fact that Ultimate Spider-man didn't even bother dragging out the "geek" part of Peter's character shows how good the transition was.

As for Superman's "God problem", it doesn't really obstruct potential evolution of the character. His symbol can be challenged, can't it? Like Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen? And what about his Clark Kent persona? How would a Southern American perspective of the world influence his moral and political positions? As I said, there's some great potential for the character, but I feel like it's going to waste.

Actually, I could say the same thing for a lot of DC series. I find it so difficult to get into because the mythology doesn't reflect what I recognise in the world around me. I've always wondered what Batman would like in a 21st century Gotham, how he would survive in a world where the nature of crime is changing and declining. A new perspective on the subject of madness would be interesting to see.

cosmic hobo

i dont really get all this, superman is not human he is a deus ex machina for a start, hes not human, look at the fantastic smallville, it deals with superman finding hes place as a stranger in a strange land oh and its all so over and finished and not intresting that its in its 100th season, look at stories like red son, true brit, and all star that explore the myth of this god, superman does not carry the same context as spider - man they are two vastly differing titles, superman holds massive populer appeal (thats not to say that spiderman does not, but i think thats got to do with three up market toy adverts of the last few years then the content of the comic) superman is a modern myth, a hero on a quest to find himself and to be more then his limits, its about toil and struggle the themes of identaty and the individaul are also important in superman, much more meaningfull then some web slinging Rom - Com. as much as i like spiderman i do get the feeling that he is an extension of the collective fanboys wet dreams Very Happy

Raien

Superman really doesn't have massive popular appeal, Cosmic Hobo; his comics have notably failed to sell compared to Marvel comics (one of the reasons that Marvel owns 80% of the entire comic book industry), and his single motion picture flopped and left DC debating what to do with him in a series reboot. It's also interesting that you hold Smallville in contempt considering that it's the only Superman property that I've ever seen held as an example of Superman's capabilities as a modern 21st character.

I think the term "modern myth" is starting to stretch considering how long it has been since the Superman comics were really dominating the industry. Christopher Reeve revitalised the character back in the 1980s, but it's obvious that with modern special effects, that people just don't care as much as they used to. Superman needs a change.

cosmic hobo

yeah ok...next people will be saying that will eisner, bob kane alex raymound and chester gould are overated...

if any of you havent read it i think a few of you may get a kick out of stan lee's just imagine where stan "the man" lee reinvents superman and others.

make mine a marvel! make mine a marvel! make mine a Marvel!...sorry the brain washing was kicking in.

Raien

Okay, Cosmic Hobo. Two things:

1) Please use punctuation. It's a small thing that stops reading your post from becoming a translation effort.

2) You seem to have missed the point of the topic. This is not about debating personal opinions, this is about discussing the factual positions of the Superman/Spider-man characters in the public domain.

Superman is a symbol that defines the superhero, like Mickey Mouse defines the animated cartoon character. We get that, there's no debate about it. But just like Mickey Mouse, Superman is not in the public eye anymore. People are not buying his comics or watching his films/television like they are with Spider-man. Spider-man is the biggest money-maker for the comic book industry, and he's a constantly appealing character to the general public. This is not up for debate; Superman is famous but not for anything he's done in the past twenty years.

So the question is what does Spider-man have that makes him so appealing? I suggest that it is in part due to stealing what originally made Superman popular; the symbol of a man tackling down-to-earth problems in a contemporary society. Since Superman went up into space and began fighting ginormous monsters, and Metropolis became increasingly distanced from the real world, that important symbol of "reality reflection" was up for the taking, and Spider-man made it his own.

You point out the rom-com element of Spider-man, but that only helps establish that grounding in reality. Seeing a character having to deal with the real world in more ways than just fighting criminals gives the series an extra layer of depth and meaning that people appreciate. That's not demeaning the abstract symbolism of Superman, but it does explain why Superman is typically ignored by the public.

Web of Fear

Raien

Batmanuel

Did i say S... sorry i meant double yah Laughing

only kidding, some interesting points have been covered here, and commercial success as counted in dollars doesn't necessarily mean icon status, one point made that i fell was very important was webs "Superman, and the "S" shield, are recognizable by people the world over, most of whom will have never read a comic in their life."
This to some extent can also be attributed to the Batman Theme tune from the 60's TV show, and the Bond Theme, in musical terms both if these reach iconic status.
It really doesnt matter that Superman is an alien, every man wants to be Super, and every woman wants a superman.
heterosexually speaking that is, thought i woulds add that, never know, someone may have picked up on it.

Robin The Boy Wonder

Raien

It's interesting that all the stories held up as Classic Superman (All-Star Superman, Red Son) are non-continuity spin-off series. Considering that these books are distinguished by re-establishing Superman's relationship with humanity, I would say this supports my assertion that the character's current problem with mainstream appeal is that Superman does not spend enough time dealing with real people. His stories are always cluttered by massive monsters and aliens.

Robin The Boy Wonder

It also presents an interesting case that DC are only prepared to do something truly ground-breaking with the character in an out-of-continuity story.

If DC aren't careful, they won't be one of a 'Big Two', but the supporting act to the 'Big One'.

Which sounds really very perverted. Shocked

CatFang

Interesting.

If you look at the market share stats for DC and Marvel for sales through Daimond then Marvel has almost double DC both in terms of overall units, 47%:27 %and dollar share, 42%:27%

And this is with the Vertigo books counted as DC.

Of course there is then a massive gap to the next biggest which is down in single figures.

Anyway - that's all pretty off topic.

As to my thoughts about Superman, while I have enjoyed some books with him in like Red Son, ASS (heh - that spells ass!) and New Frontier - in general I think he doesn't work as a hero because he is too perfect and powerful.

This means to get any interesting drama out of human scale stories there first has to be some crowbarring of the story as why his concerns have become so small.

It's the Dr Manhattan problem, of course Smile

The Watchman

Batmanuel

So, What: are, you? trying' to, Say... Laughing

Ooooh Sorry, Sorry Sorry Sorry, i just couldn't resist Very Happy

it was not me anyway, it was my evil twin Wink

Longshot

Although I personally may be bias, I would say that there are times that the scope of Superman's powers are entierly irrelevant in tell a tale. As long as you know how to tell them. But in many a case some writers struggle.

At the moment I think they have got a good team running all the Superman titles, and I do think that what theyre doing is a good way to break the norms.

Clearly there has been enough good writers on the series in the years, as they are still selling comics, and I'm pritty sure theyre still one of the biggest selling. People will buy anything, I know, but if the stories are that bad people will stop.