Beowulf

Reaper · Beowulf

For those that don't know there is a big screen high budget version of the old legend coming to our screens next week. It features an all star cast including Angelina Jolie, Ray Winstone, John Malkovich, Robin Wright Penn and Crispin Glover (Points if you know who he is... without IMDB!).
The interesting twist in how they've produced the film is that they've used MoCap, this is where they film the actors doing all their scenes and then CGI over the top of them. Polar Express is one example of the technology and A Scanner Darkly is another example with a different look.

To me it looks pretty good even just from an animation POV so lets hope they manage to pull it off. In its favour it has Robert Zemeckis directing it and he's done some pretty good stuff in the past. Very Happy

Check out the trailer

norsefire1

i can not wait for this film, its going to rule, one of my fav tales told by such masters of there art.plus the buzz (so far) seems to be very pro the film, which is good cos i was not sure how people would take to it. ive been waiting for this film for ages,bring it on.

CatFang

At first I was wary. Beowulf is one of my favourite things, and the main reason I learnt Anglo-Saxon - which I think is cool, despite the blank and confused reaction of most people when I get over excited and tell them that.

I heard about the changes to the source materials and thought "typical hollywood" Evil or Very Mad

but then I went to the movie site and read the thing behind what they had done to draw the threads together.

Given they had to make a coherent story out of something fragmentary it sounds like a good job has been done. I don't quite agree with what they have done with the dragon - but won't discuss that until it is out an people have seen it in case of spoilers.

I am going to see it IN 3D at the Imax at the weekend.

Woooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo

Reaper

I don't know the original story so please enlighten me on the differences Smile

CatFang

Well, I'm at work right now (slyly checking forum anyway) but if you want to read the text for free (old english and new) together with some background etc it is definitely worth while to get a sense of the rhythms and the darkness etc.

My favourite translation is probably by Seamus Heaney - but you'd have to buy that still I would think.

The main difference that I have heard of is the nature and relationships of Grendel's mother (played by Angelina Jolie in the film) with the human cast and how they use that to bridge a gap of many years in the recorded version of the poem we have now.

Once I've seen the film I'll do a review and make a section in that for the differences.

Guest

main thing putting me off right now is the bit in the trailer with "I! AM! BEOWULF!"

... yeah, 300 was popular, but don't steal the signature ... rhythm? god knows what.

(unless you're robot chicken - "THIS! IS! SCRUMMY!" was pretty funny...)

The Rascal King · Re: Beowulf

Xeall

meh not to bothered about it. Looks like it climb apon the myth wagon film time.

However your comment about mo cap reminded me of something, A japanse studio is creating a naruto ps3 game and they are doing the worlds first Animated mocap! yeah complex and amazing. Takes about 3 hours to do 3 seconds! just as comic people that might have future uses.

The Rascal King

Films always come in 2's.

And that is so cool!

CatFang

Reaper

Sometimes its very easy to see that its CGI especially close up on the faces or if they're wet. Other times its very difficult, took me till half way through the trailer to be sure.

CatFang

I'm really hoping there is more to this film than the CGI.

However "realistic" it might look now it is sure to date. Although Gollum still looks good.

Now I think about it so much of Beowulf is about the language - how it is said, rather than what is said (the actual plot is a pretty standard one, really) that now I am nervous it is not going to be that good again.

Roll on Saturday and end this speculation....

Kikari

Mmmm I kinda wanna see this film better than Ratatouile anyway

CatFang

Guest

Even Catwomen?

Or the LXG film?

Or Constantine?

Twisted Evil

CatFang

Probably, yes.

Maybe even a second viewing of V for....no actually I can't go that far.

norsefire1

haveing seen the film now, it does over all rule, in a lot of ways the mo cap is still sinking in in a "was that real was that not" way. what makes the film good is that the script plays on what is real what is myth as well, good acting all round, grendal and unferth stand out, as does hopkins for that matter. i dont want to say to much more cos i think people should go see it themselfs, i will be seeing it again.

CatFang

Just got back from seeing it.

Overall very impressed. Obviously there have been changes from the poem and with only one exception about Beowulf himself I thought they all worked more or less well enough.

While I appreciated the point about trying to get "back to the pagan" sources I thought the changes to Unferth were a bit heavy handed.

There was only one real disappointment in that one of my favourite passages from the poem did not make it into an onscreen scene due to some changes about who Beowulf's companions were at what points. But it would have just been seconds on the screen, so it is not that big a deal.

But, as norsefire1 says I won't say more until more people have seen it in case of spoilers.

Key "wins" for me:

The visual shape of the film manages to get across the rhythm and texture of the poem very well.

There is some anglo saxon to be heard at points from bards etc, and Grendel and his mother speak a kind of "pidgin" version that gets the feel of it over. Also there are several "directly translate" speeches which display all the power of the poem.

The fights are excellent and the dragon is the best I've seen. I particularly liked the preparations for the Grendel fight, and what it suggests.

No one does a scream of triumph quite like old Ray Winstone.

As norsefire1 also says the film deals with the nature of myth and reality very interestingly as well.

I'll be getting the DVD for certain - well recommended, but read the poem as well.

Kikari

Wanna see it ><

Reaper

I saw this last wednesday and was pretty impressed with the animation, it was very well done. The film didn't completely grab me and I'm still trying to decided if its because of the pacing of the film or because I had already spent 3 hours sitting watching Into The Wild previously.

It was pretty fun though, big fights with some good old fashioned death and destruction but again the main thing to strike me was the CGI and the voice acting. I'm glad it stuck pretty much to the original story (so I'm told), it's nice to know that as you watch and that can (in my mind) partially allow some of the odd pacing because it's not something that was written for film.

CatFang

Got the art of Beowulf book for Christmas.

Very interesting stuff about how the artists / animators / physical modellers etc worked together and the kind of tools / software etc they used.

Well worth a read for anyone interested in getting CG/movie art/design etc

My favourite thing is that as Dermot Power was one of the lead concept artists there is a painting of Heorot with Slaine standing at the side against a with his arms folded. Apparently he is grumpy because he does not have a film of his adventures Laughing

Not sure if he actually made into the render of the scene in CGI but I'll look out for him when I get it on DVD.

There was a lot of talk between the artists about who would win between Beowulf and Slaine - but it does not give their answers. Very tough that one but I would probably say Slaine. Still, I wonder if his story will be around in 1000 years time.

If you haven't seen the mocked up Horned God trailer on the internet (and this is old news, so you probably have) then have a search for it. It's stunning. They should just let the guy get on and make it.

norsefire1

the art book does rule, got it a while back, as does the slaine trailer, very very cool. on the slaine "real" movie front there is a awsome little piece about a the concept of a slaine movie in the afterword or intro of book of invasions 3 (i think its book 3), but beowulf book is well worth it, for people who enjoyed the movie.

CatFang

CatFang

Got an email off play.com today to say the dvd will be out in March

No news about what extras will be on it though.

CatFang

Yay - It arrived on Blu-ray yesterday!!

Absolutely stunning picture, lots of extras, a bit more sex and violence in the directors cut.

They should do Gawain and The Green Knight like this - oh oh and a Kratos film. It could be the first really good game licence...but probably not.

norsefire1

i have not seen it since i got it but i must get round to seeing the dir cut. i think sir gawin and the green knight with the mo cap tec would be very cool (which is strange cos when i met mr Gaiman i told him that it would be cool if he where to retell that story) but what we really all want is a Elric movie with this kind of tec.

CatFang

Hey - haven't seen you around here for ages! Glad you're back Laughing

Yeah, Elric would work very well done like this.

Have you read the P Craig Russell drawn Elrics? I haven't (yet) but Manny got me the retrospective book of his art - picked it up today - and they are just beautiful.

Batmanuel

NorseFire:

CatFang

norsefire1

i have not read the P Craig Russell stuff but Iam sure its awesome, (the art at least cos after all the stuff that i own and have read of Roy Thomas i still dont know if i think if he has done more harm to the fantasy greats then good

i think i like Roy Thomas in princible anyway

) is the retrospective worth it?

But yes it is a question i ask myself a lot, when is there to be an elric movie, oh that and where are my Krull Toys Laughing

CatFang

The retrospective is definitely worth it. The book itself is extremely well produced, and comprehensive at 250-ish pages.

The reproduction of the art is very high quality and as P Craig Russell himself had a hand in the design and layout of the book is given "room to breathe". He also wrote the all the text, rather than having someone else write about him and there are lots of interesting little gems in there.

I have a lot of art books and it is one of the nicest I have seen.

Re adaptations - I tend not to read them as usually so much of the original gets lost as things are moved between media, but there are certain things I will buy just for the art.

As for Roy Thomas I think the only thing I have read by him is Killraven - which Batmanuel lured me into buying by pretending I would be happy to just borrow it and hand it back - the time we were down for Cy's launch party and I met you in the shop. I wasn't that struck by his writing or storytelling (but it was the 1970s!) but I did like his sense of invention and trying to do something different. The art, though, is outstanding - I love the origin of Volcana in particular.

norsefire1

thanks very much on your views on the retrospective.

you see for me, when it comes to Roy Thomas work i have a complex respect/dislike thing. which all boils down with what he has done to the world of Conan. i think you have hit the nail on the head there Catfang, he does invention very well. although no master of storytelling (just read a Roy Tomas Conan story and then one by Howard)

i feel that the work of Roy Thomas feeds well into the bigger subject of re adaptations and within the context of the fantasy genre. i feel that the risk does tend to be as Catfang said that so much is losted when moved between media but the way i see that in the retelling or adding of the story one gets a sense of myth at work. for me the move into another media keeps the story alive in a bizzare way.something akin to what the bards did ( i apoligise for the creative anachronism) and in this i think Roy Thomas does an awesome job. there is also another level why i think i enjoy re adaptions so much is due to my adoration of 'concept art' i feel that the re adaptions art feeds back the values of the original.

thanks again on your views on the retrospoective.

CatFang

That is a very interesting point about the mythic / bardic aspects of adaptations. It isn't something I had really thought about before - although I really should have Laughing

I obviously had some of dividing line in my mind where the retelling of mythic cycles is part of what makes them great and yet being quite sniffy about modern adaptations. Thanks for that - much food for thought - and a change in perspective - which is not something that you expect on a Sunday afternoon.

When I first heard about the changes to Beowulf my first reaction was "how could they change it" until I thought about it and realised that was stupid as the version we know as "the proper Beowulf" now is just one version of a story cycle that was captured to writing at some point - and no doubt altered by scribes, consciously or not, over time. What they came up with is pretty good. I think, although I think Beowulf himself is undermined somewhat although that in itself is slightly contradicted within the film itself.

Also I always tut when people say "but in the original King Arthur....!!" I guess its because the authors are unknown it doesn't seem unfair / improper in some way to use the characters.

I think that the balance point comes somewhere along the line of "re-imagining" (as they say now in Hollywood) and "adapting". I have not read any Roy Thomas Conan, but I have recently read all the Howard stories (like a Frazetta of words Laughing

). If you try to just adapt someone else's story into a different medium then you lose what made the original the original, if you see what I mean. If however you tell a story using the same character then you are extending it.

If you haven't read P Craig Russell's Ring of The Nieblungs I would recommend it. I have had it for several years and really like it. It is a good example of how he took the legends and the music and forged something new that adds to the story. Now in the retrospective I have been able to read about how to studied the music as deeply as the legends and the libretto which has made it all the more interesting. I will be reading it again very soon.

Rambling now...

norsefire1

i see no problem with some kind of dividing line in ones mind where modern adaptations are concerned there are some quite poor ones out there, film and t.v excell in them.(although i still end up owning them all on dvd Exclamation

)

i think if one is to look at any retelling of "fantasy" within the context of the mythic and in turn what changes a modern writer will make in the retelling is often down to the writer (for better or worse) trying to tell something of "our" times. just look how in film and t.v that the sheriff of nottingham has become allegory for the values sociaty dislikes at the time be it be in Melville Cooper's jumped up Nazi in the 1938 robin hood, to Nickolas Grace's awesome turn as a thatcherite pen pusher in the 80s robin of Sherwood.

i completly understand and agree with catfangs point of retelling and to extending a mythos. with that said i think it can bring its own headaches, and something that far extendes that heresy of heresy's continuity. i think that even within the expanding of a mythos one can see a loss of what made that character good in the first place even in keeping with the same media. a glance at what August Derleth did with H.P lovecrafts work.

i have indeed read P Craig Russell's ring cycle. its been a few years since ive read them but it is indeed awesome. things like the very first page of the work mimics the first few notes of Wagner's work which in turn creates a whole universe of Gods and Monsters. strange how its the telling of the story that expands the myth not the story its self. which is exactly what Wagners telling does. his ring cycle diverts from the nordic and saxon works from where he took his inspiration. although many take Wagners telling (and therefor modern values, not those of the dark ages) as standard.

CatFang

The Sherriff of Nottingham is an interesting one. He has become such an archetype that no one thinks that there was actually a real historical sheriff in 1194 when Richard 1st returned to England and Nottingham held out against him. Of course the legend is not that specific in time, and fulfills a very different purpose to the history. There is a very interesting book about the Robin Hood legend by John Matthews called "Robin Hood: Green Lord of the Wildwood" - it is out of print now but you can still quite easily get it - well worth a read - about this kind of thing.

Ah - Robin of Sherwood - a true classic Laughing

I have it all on dvd. Well, not the Jason Connery ones, because it got a bit rubbish then. The same people made the Dick Turpin series, of course (which I also have) and turned him into Robin Hood as well!

Speaking of Roy Thomas last night we watched Fire and Ice which is a fantasy animation from 1982 written by him, animated by Ralph Bakshi and with character design by Frank Frazetta.

Apparently it is a very very early version of mo-cap where all the characters are drawings over film of actors.

It is very pretty (and reminds me of Conan in some ways) but there is not really any story.

Norsefire1 - have you read any of the Savage Sword of Conan stories? I saw the phone book sized collections when I was in Canterbury a while back and quite fancied picking them up but we could not carry any more comics!

norsefire1

i have indeed read "robin hood green lord of the wildwood" it comes up with some very nice myth/ritaul stuff even if its comeing from a new age perspective. and dispite him not knowing that much about the Norman rule of england and he gets a whole set of dates wrong but the book is still well worth the read.

yes robin of sherwood (Robin...the hooded man Very Happy

) i to own it...all even the jason Connery ones. i always have thought that it was ripe for continuation, maybe in book or audio play form. in fact where are my Robin of sherwood action figures Exclamation

there was also a willliam tell show or Crossbow as it was called elsewhere that had a lot of crossover writers form robin of sherwood.

i like fire and ice very much,infact i like it better then Bakshi's lord of the rings.i dont feel that the lack of plot hinders the film at all, and very much in tone to what Thomas Conan is like.infact there was going to be a Elric movie after fire and ice using the same kind of tec but it was never to be.

i have read much of the Savage sword of Conan, maybe some of Roy Thomas best work, more in line with Howards, and some of the art is fantastic, although if you dont have it you get more Howards Conan for your english pound with the Dark horse stuff.

CatFang

I was saying as we were watching it that I thought it would have suited Elric - although now I would go with the Beowulf style animation.

John - John Matthews is really more at home with the Celtic stuff, as you say, new age slant, but I do like his ideas.

And yes - where are the Robin of Sherwood action figures - a fine point, sir.

I love how they did the orcs in Bakshi's lord of the rings - even though I heard it was just to save time and budget. I think it worked really well.

I'll have a look at both Conans then. As I said, I just read all the Howard for the first time. Before that I had only seen the films Embarassed

I hear there is to be a new film - I wonder if it will be closer to the source material?

In fact, as Cy was saying the other day, it seems with all the remakes and adaptations that are going on at the moment it is almost as if people are going back to the mediaeval concept of "authoritie"!

A little fact I picked up the other day which you might find interesting if you didn't already know is that The Canterbury Tales produced some of the first of what we would know today as "fan fiction" with readers filling in some of the tales that didn't get told. I have always thought the Canterbury Tales was a fictional mediaeval blog, myself.

You should write a review of the Conans for the Blast From The Past section. That would be really interesting reading.

I am going to try and get round to doing Slaine the Horned God this week.

norsefire1

i to think any Elric film that would be made today should be made with mo cap.

again i think you are right Catfang that John matthews is far more at home with the celtic stuff (read a rehash of 19th Cent. hermeneutic druidic wimsy) it would seem that when Matthews moved into post norman conquest england a few things got lost in the shift of Paradigm.

yes the Orcs are very good in Bakshi's lord of the rings, one of the real plus points of the film. made up for Aragorns costume, what was that about Question

I think that Cy has a point there although as it is i think that the movies use this interchangeable concept to suit there needs just as those who used to practice Canon Law.

intreresting that the Canterbury tales is brought up here cos i have a Theory about that how the Canterbury Tales should be read. i belive that due to it being read as literature (the reader being the morden individual responding to the text looking for insight to human condition) it has lost its context, i belive it should be read with more mediaval eyes., point in Case is the knight as being read though literature as being the flower of chivalry where as the all the other pilgrims within the work are Morally flawed (save for the Parson, who after all may suffer from pride after all) so why not the knight under the way he works at his trade it is only though looking at though mediaeval eyes at the canterbury tales that we may gain any authentic understanding.

maybe writeing a review of the Conan Comics, some kind of overview would be fun to do. how would one go about that Question

looking forword to reading about slaine, cos there seems to be far to little comment on one of the uks most awesome of myths.

CatFang

Have a look at the Blast From The Past in the reviews section.

This probably went up during the time you were away from the forum.

The first post is BatManuel's intro about the section and what to do.

Only him and me have posted reviews in it so far.

norsefire1

thanks very much, silly me. should of had a look around the forum before i started stupid questions. looks like i am going to have to do a bit of re reading.

CatFang

norsefire1

the work of professor R. Hutton had a huge impact on me. up there in the way that Jane ellen Harrison and Mircea Eliade, in my eyes the only way that any "goddess tradition" can work as a credible faith is to throw off any type of 2nd rate Historiography and practice what Hutton suggests in that such venacular religious practice finds its authentic purpose in being a "new" religious movement.

i could not agree more on what Catfang has to say about the idea or perception of "chivalry". i am quite sure that the work of Walter Scott has caused more corruption on the history of the mediaeval knight and the goings on of the court then any other lone indervidual (although many critics would say with the gift of retrospect that he was useing history in the light of "contemporary" idears)

i must admit that a knights tale is very watchable and paul bettany's chaucer is very good.

CatFang

My sister almost went to Bristol university just so she could be taught by Hutton - but in the end other factors came into play in her choice. He must be a great teacher and have a lasting impact on his studetns as I was once on the tube, reading "stations of the sun" and a man came up to me and struck up a conversation about him as he had been his tutor at uni. That kind of thing is underheard of!

I really enjoy his books and I saw one about druids I hadn't read a few months ago - so that is on the wishlist Laughing

Am just reading Beowulf again as now as I have been inspired by this. Nothing like a bit of Anglo Saxon doom to on your morning commute.

I did the review of the Horned God now so would be interested in your thoughts when you get a minute.

norsefire1

which translation of beowulf are you reading Question

is it any good Question

i have left my response to your blast from the past. i will try and do me Conan one by the end of the week.

today i received a book catfang/others may be/not interested in, it is called law and chaos by wendy pini and is about an unmade elric movie project.

CatFang

norsefire1

well iam kind of glad that iam not the only one who feels the need to own a small collection of verying Translations of beowulf,

i agree that Heaney's translation excells in its tone, which brings me to mind of the magnus magnusson's awesome Njals saga, as well as bringing reconciling idears of 'luck' and 'fate/doom' into the contemorary mind.

i have only read around the julian glover play. to mixed reviews but i do own Grendel by john Gardner which is told from Grendels Pov as well as eaters of the dead by michael crichton which trys to go some way to demystify the beowulf tale (but by doing so puts the myth back in Question

) also somewhere is my first "beowulf" as it where by the powerhouse of historical fiction for kids, rosemary sutcliff (who since then has always demanded in me a need for a sense of the historical in the fantasy i read) also i have the "book" of the film which i brought in a deal with the art book but it is a worthy retelling all of its own.

i find Bradley's work boring, i was always under the assumption that translation was more of a art then a scince.

ah yes the Michael alexender translation, thats the one that stays with me, the one i dip into. it's the one the reminds me that there is little (yet so much) that is different between the us liveing in the 21cent and dark age man. as for the Tolkien translation, the man who changed the way we read beowulf, the man who showed that it should be read in its context and indeed be read as art.

i also have a couple of other translations in other books, fragmants in a couple of critical study's and a very nice illustrated volume by John Howe as well as a comic version.

to me all translations have some worth cos its retelling the saga, keeping it alive which in turn help the reader gain a better view and understanding of beowulf.

CatFang

Ooh , yes, the Rosemary Sutcliffe version. That was my first Beowulf, too. Now you have reminded me of it I must get a copy of it again. I think I was probably too young for it, really, when I read it, I was really scared, but excited at the same time. I remember just how I came to it as well. At primary school we had been doing the story of the Cyclops (our teacher in the 70s/80s was obviously not so over protective of "not scaring the children" as they are today)!. We had to write a poem about the Cyclops, and while I don't remember anything else about it I remember I wrote the line "your blood will swish around his mouth" that I was really pleased with. My teacher spotted my preferences, took me to the reading corner and gave me Myths of The Norsemen by Roger Lanclyn Green (which I still have an old battered copy of). Having devoured it in one night I returned to school with the light of battle in my eyes, hungry for more, and she started me on Rosemary Sutcliffe with Beowulf:Dragonslayer. Aaah - thanks for bringing back those happy memories Very Happy

It is worth adding the Julian Glover one to your collection.
The ISBN: 0750943114
Apparently there is an audio book of it as well - maybe I will try and track down a copy - but as it is so old I may not have a machine that will play it if it is only on vinyl or tape.

I have not read Grendel by John Gardner - but definitley going to now you have told me about it. I don't know if I can bring myself to read anything by Michael Crichton though.

I love Tolkien (as you probably guessed) and I think his essay "the monsters and the critics" on Beowulf is a brilliant slap in the face to all the dusty commentators who said Beowulf was not "proper" because it "has monsters in it". They obviously either hadn't read it or were too stupid to understand it! Grrr (like a monster!)

Do you have Magnus Magnusson's translations of the Icelandic Sagas then? That is where I discovered Eigil Skallagrimsson who is one of my favourite poets.

norsefire1

thanks very much for putting the isbn num for the Julian Glover book i shall pick up a copy.as for the audio it is very possible that it is on itunes or some other download site Question

Grendel is well worth the read i understand there is a opera of this work to. Chricton's book is one of his better and i think a usefull take on the beowulf story although over the years i have thought why do what he did in the first place Question

. if you do not wish to read the novel then there is a film version that lays out the idears of the book, it gests put out on the BBC late at night every now and then but a dvd copy of the of the the 13th warrior should set you back about £5.

i would say that Tolkiens eassy, (which i re read last night cos of this subject) is pivotal to every Translation of beowulf since. have you read the Chilidren of Hurin yet Question

i do indeed own Magnus Magnussons translations of the icelandic saga's, (i buy almost everything Magnus Magnusson puts his name to, kind of like a brand, the name you can trust in all things, Nordic or icelandic Smile

) Eigil skallagrimsson such a awesome life. his childhood exploits have such a wonderful sense of pragmatism about them. and the cunning spell's of Gunnhilder can only make one have faith in the curse she puts on poor Eigil. i think what one gets with skallagrimsson's work is a real sense of the power and the glory of the age.although to me it the work of skallagrimson does not have the same profound commentay on the human condition as Njals saga does.

CatFang

I haven't read Children of Hurin yet. I keep being tempted as (unlike most people I do like the Silmarillion very much, but then I knew what I wan't getting a "prequel - just like LOTR but earlier").

I have read quite a few, but not all, of the "expansion" books put out after Tolkien's death but I have a bit of a suspicion that they are not really his writings and just made up by his family. Which, of course, is not to say that they would not be good...

What is it like?

So - I am slightly confused - is the 13th Warrior the film of the Crichton book? I did see it (but I fell asleep a bit in the middle as it was on late at night!) and I think I remember thinking it was a bit slow - but it could have been because I was tired.

Wouldn't it have been great to have been taught by Tolkien? I read an interesting book called Road to Middle Earth (I think) by Tom Shippey about the mythologies and literature that inform LOTR - and he was a student of Tolkien's and I get the impression was also his friend afterwards.

I really wanted to do the "Anglo-saxon, Norse and Celtic" degree at Cambridge, but didn't for various reasons (too close to parents at the time, not feeling I would fit in witht the other students etc) but it turned out for the best as I came to UKC instead, met Cy and he brought me to Manny's!

Yeah - Eigil's saga is much more the "action film" variant compared to Njal's. I also have my very own norse warrior poet in Cy - his ancestry is Norse (traced way back by his gran - and his family is even in the domesday book) although his persoanl warrior skills are Japanese rather than northern european Cool

I have a couple of books by Magnus Magnusson - but any recommendations greatly appreciated.

norsefire1

i to get a lot out of the simarillion, it feels so authentic, reminds me so much of Gilgamesh in its tone so lucid, so pure. as for the chilidren of Hurin its great, based on one of my fave tales from finland 'Kullervo', it is very different to the Lord of the rings, the characters are far more "gray" and the storytelling far more in line with the dark ages, then the post 19th Cent stlye that Lord of the Rings is put out in. and the ending...oh the ending.

with the issue of what is Tolkins work and what is the work of others it is all laid out in the intro of the book, which is very little really, i guess the best way to put it over would be that things that where changed where done for the sake of continuity.

for all its failings the 13th warrior is indeed the film of the Crichton book, its pacing is a little off, but good fun never the less.

i dont know how good it would have been to be taught by Tolkien, i think i would of been at odds with him most of the time. as much as i like his myth i wonder why he felt the need to stab his reader with compassion and sacrifice in such an underhanded way. but yeah it would of been awesome.

Wow...thats quite brilliant about Cy being able to trace his ancsestors back to a mention in the doomsday book. very cool indeed.

as for Magnus Magnusson (and others), Osprey's the Vikings : voyagers of discovery and plunder is well worth it.

CatFang

This form costs me such a lot of money! Now I will have to look for those Magusson books as well.

I have ordered Grendel so should have that in a couple of days.

You have tempted me with the Children of Hurin, now. It was the grey, Finnish, dark age aspects that did it.

You are right about the compassion and sacrifice (I do like the concept of "stabbing readers with compasssion" Laughing

) but of course his christian faith was an important part of his life. Whether you should let your beliefs so colour your work is another question. In many ways LOTR is a kind of lament for a rustic middle class england that never existed. Some of its messages are a bit "off" now, but it was a product of its author and its times like everything else.

I would have also been at odds about the idea of compassion vs Will (as you may have gathered when there was the thread about what makes a hero some time back), but so long as you have a teacher who is open to debate and does not insist all his students have the same opinions as him then that would have been good. Different points of view enrich the argument I think. I have no idea if Tolkien was like that though.

What do you think of the idea that Beowulf makes use of the text based equivalent of Interlace design - as seen in lots of North European art?

I find it persuasive and have been thinking about creating a visual version of the different strands of the poem as some sort of mammoth interlaced / knotworked design that all flows together. It may be one of my great schemes that comes to nothing, though, as it is so potentially vast that I am likely to be paralysed as to how to start it!

norsefire1

i hope that you get a lot out of Grendel, its a book that shines a light in darkist parts of the Trolls cave illuminating a little on the Complexity on that doomed creature.

as for the idea of the idea that Beowulf makes use of a text based equivalent of interlace design is an intresting idea. you see i have 2 verying thoughts on this subject one is as you say that it is indeed very persuasive, like lots of saga's from the Dark ages's (both pagan and christian, although christianity would of by in large been worshiped pargmaticlly after the fall of the roman empire) and other forms of art found in northen european there is indeed a great holistic approach.that refects the intracacy of nature's forms. but on the other hand there is no real evidance to the interlace design haveing any magical, religious or philosophical meaning, save for the one that "new age" wicca and the monks at lindisfarne gave it. (and with the lindisfarne monastic's it seems they where appying idears to the Celtic Knot, propaganda though a similar cultural motif Question

) so i dont know, i think that if the so called celtic knot is little more then a nice decoration then i may feel that it may inturn devalue Beowulf cos the last thing that beowulf is, is nothing more text based equivalent of decoration for the ear's. i do hope that this does not sound like i am hedging my bets here, its just that i think it would be wise to find out the real meaning of the "celtic" knot work and not let the "new age" taint its or beowulf's context.

CatFang

I think that whatever the "meaning" of the interlace designs to the people of the time (and it could have been that they just found them attractive) that they are so deeply a part of that culture's visual expression it would be expected to find them elsewhere, as part of the Zeitgeist, so to speak.

So if it was that dark ages north europeans just found knotted, winding patterns harmonius and attractive it can tell us about their aesthetic prefereces for sure - whether we can realistically extrapolate from that up to magical, religious or pholisophical meaning will never be certain, as you say, although cultures do tend to produce psychological patterns.

We do know though that some of the writings on literature and composition of the time are very concerned with structure and use many words to do with weaving and pattern making in this context. Given the use of the the interlaces in things like the Lindisfarne gospels that they must have been considered in some way suitable appropriate. Perhpas it was an attempt at a pragmatic approach to marry what were still two quite separate cultures. Reading other Saxon / Norse translations of bible stories etc I do not think their understanding of Christianity was anything like the same as that in contempary Rome, and certainly nothing like the majority of Christians understand it today.

Whether poems like Beowulf are "decoration for the ears" is more of a discussion about "what is art" which is much trickier Very Happy

I am really looking forward to reading Grendel now.

In many ways Grendel's mother is one of the most interesting characters in the poem - and I think probably the most difficult for the poet poised between the pagan and christian worlds - and based on what happened to other, better attested and trackable characters - the most twisted to fit a new role.

In many ways her "monstrous" aspects seem to be more about her not being a "peace weaver" and keeping in her proper place!

I would be interested in your take on what they did with her in the recent film.

norsefire1

i agree that the the interlace design was indeed a deep part of the visual expression celtic/darkage culture and i like the idea of it being part of or a zeitgeist , i like that a lot. on the other hand i feel that on one level yes, as you say that the knoted patterns can tell us much of the cultures aesthetic prefereces but the interlace design has been a victim of the horror's of interpretation and speculation.

again with writeings of the time and there stucture of words to do with weaving and pattern makeing. and in the case of holy text's it may be indeed conserdered approiate which would in turn imply that the interlace design would have some kind of easly recognisable spiritual significance. i would like to propose that very much like (at the risk of orientalising the subject) the use of Mandala's in the east. such use of the interweaving device could be out there to establish a sense of sacred space, or an aid into a trance maybe. a device, a way into but not the point of the text. (e.g the Lindisfarne gospels)

Grendels mother is indeed one if not the most interesting characters in the poem. i agree that Gendels mother has also been the victim of so much speculation. one may even say she has been scarred by it. i would 100% agree with you that cos grendals mother is not forfilling her role she is cast out. her child slain and then beheaded postmortam, her home defiled all due to her not playing her part as hostess, madness.

as for what they did with grendals mother in the recent movie is i think very intresting, she is a complex paradox, part of me likes to think that she was put down on paper as a critical response to other translations. part of me also feels that with the recant film the writers have made her a vengeful valkyrie in part at least something seamus heaney points out although uses amazons rather then the valkyrie. at times she seems to be quite in keeping with the poem.(although in appearance she is never givein a decent description in the poem) the claws are there, she lives in a lake like place but then there is the shapeshifting and the seduction which is not like the poem. far from the hag. does it take away from the the power of the poem Question

i dont think so, i recall that i did not have an issue with it when i viewed the movie for the first time.is it a cop out

maybe. intrestingly in the novel of the movie (which is very good a rare thing in books of the movie) grendals mother is infact Nerthus the germainic fertility goddess.

there is a bigger question about grendels mother in the recant movie. cos if we take the two act stucture of the poem grendals mother becomes a footnote, just another trail for beowulf to slay, so in the scheme of things she may not be that important at all. so the inclusion of hag as the 2nd act says a lot about the traslation in its self.

CatFang

Interesting points, as always, Norsefire1.

I had wondered myself, before, if there was some Mandala-like purpose to the interlaces. I certainly find that it is very easy to get drawn into them. I guess we will never really know Crying or Very sad

Even if they did some use like this I wonder how far apart the response they would provoke in a dark age person would be from a woman born in the late 20th century?

Casting grendel's mother explicitly as Nerthus kind of makes sense with what they did in the film script. I had not heard about that before. If I ever get the chance (and this is soooooo unlikely) I would really like the chance to talk with Neil Gaiman about how he approached the script, what translations he used etc.

When thinking about the structure about the structure of the poem I prefer the idea of a 3 act structure of large acts balanced around a small third "pivot" act - which is the grendel's mother story. Although it is somewhere inside / behind the actual text I think there is something transformative about the underwater encounter with the mother- I am still not entirely sure that I had decided what it is. It may be that I never will be - it could be that information is missing / changed/ not understood across the centuries. It could just be that this is the point he "becomes a man" if you take the view that the 2 halves of the poem show young Beowulf and old Beowulf and are all really just "trailers for his death" if you like. If I decide I finally am happy about what it is I will be sure and let you know Very Happy

As to what they did in the film, when I first saw the screen shots and heard what was going to be done I had a reactionary fit. Then I thought that as bards / skalds / scops whatever had been telling versions for centuries then a new version was quite in the spirit of things - so long as the meaning wasn't significantly changed.

In the end when I saw it I quite liked what they had done. I thought that maybe the idea was that she was more modelled along the lines of the celtic "goddess of the land" - granting kingship, having the cup, discarding her lover when a new hero was needed etc. In light of that it is interesting to hear that they used Nerthus as a model.

Some people did complain about the "sexing up" of Grendel's mother, but I think that was ok. As you say we never get an actual physical description of her, and the fight in her cave below the mere (with all of its associations!) is presented in really quite sexualised language. I liked that it seems actually the promise of "being remebered in song" that is the temptation that does for Beowulf - and not the sexy woman or the gold (although the promo posters tried very hard to give that impression).

In the poem it is almost as if in fighting and defeating Grendel's mother Beowulf somehow gains some of her "monstrous" nature and power. I kind of see this in the dragon fight as well - they both perish but what survives in the barrow may be something that is a part of them both - and the whole poem itself gives something of an idea that what was considered great and heroic then may be seen as monstrous now.

She did contrast well with the other more passive "normal" women, but I think for a 21st century audience this would have the effect of making her more attractive, not more monstrous. I guess most of the stuff about the cup-bearing would have been lost on most people, too, but it was nice that it was there as a kind of nod for those who would appreciate it.

Although I love what they did with the dragon visually I didn't really like the idea that he was Beowulf's son. I have always liked the complex relationship with Beowulf and his monsters - especially the idea that he in some way "becomes the new dragon" under the barrow with his hoard of gold which is now useless to a nation doomed to extinction. This is to do with my conception of "heroes are monsters who fight on your side", though. I guess whether you can go along with this depends if you see some sort of apotheosis at the "second funeral" which I do.

You know, soon a mod will be over here to tell us this is a forum about comics and not dark age poetry!

I wonder if the film has brought new people to the poem? If I was an English teacher I would be all over it.

norsefire1

when i met Neil Gaiman on the subject of retelling storys, the old myths, i think the rhetoric he put out there was very much pay homage to the source but seemed very confortable to fit in the demands of mordernism. which i think is very much i feel beowulfs (the movies) modus operandi.

as for the issue of the 3 act structure, i am quite happy with reading the poem in both stuructreal forms. i think that context is everything when it comes the issue of the 3 act structure and Grendals mother, i am quite happy to suffer a interpretation from the translation as this point in the poem from whatever epoch of time the translation is from. with that said when i do read it as a two act poem i will say that i do feel that grendals mother is far more then just a heroic feat he most overcome to prove his hero status. she is much more, some strange, dark and alien recollection of a time when "man" used to worship the Goddess...maybe, i really do like the idea of of Beowulf at this point in the poem going under some transformation, so that the reader can see the transfiguration of beowulf, the quest from from "man" to "superman" maybe. the contest against the tragic for the end of the act at least, won out by personal desire, mother nature defeated by Christ's wolf (or bear) by the will to power. but yes i like that idea of the transformative going on in that part of the poem and i do hope that you do get to some conclusion with that.

as for the matter of the dragon in the movie (which was awesome, the best dragon on film...ever, one can see that from just looking in the art book of the movie) i thought that the son thing after some thought worked well within the context of the film, i need to see the film again and give it some more thought but i do recall when seeing in the movie house my mind saying "what the hell is this all about". as for the idea of "becomeing the new dragon" i think it feeds in very well into idea's of the transformative which works well into the question "what is heroic and what is Monsterous". as it is for me there is no such war between what is heroic and what is monstrous. the celtic/dark age hero is beyond good and evil. i feel sigfried is a good example of this.(although sigfried drinking the dragons blood may show some evidence for the mixing of the hero and the monster)

ive never been told off before for talking about the poetry of the dark ages, oh well first time for everything i guess Smile

i think it (the beowulf movie) has got people reading the poem and i do know that in the US there was a big drive in school when the film was put out for teens to get busy reading the poem.

CatFang

norsefire1

glad you are geting something out of Grendel.

i agree that what one labels the monsterous and the heroic and indeed it is the matter of perspective that draws a line between the two. although i feel that the presbyterian in me would like to buck against that and say that though toil and indeed the fundermental choice's of the hero is then transfigerd into the divine, reconciles the politics of the soul as it where. to become a true hero in the context of the nietzschean.

the theme of chaos, and the heroic being "of chaos" is indeed very strong within Northen barbarian literiature. to me what is important about this complex aspect of the heroic within dark age saga is in part a matter of balance not dominace, the hero of chaos is indeed (for me) is an aestheic last stand of the pagan. embamatic expression, celebration of the authentic principles of individualism, the drinking of wine, ecstasy and intoxication and the greatness of the will to power against the ideas of civilzation vs. primal nature and the Christ god of rome. as you rightly said it is there choice not to be constrainad by the "normal" pre feudal system and to follow the path of (in abstract context of literature at least) Dionysus.

like to hear more on what you have to say about the subject of transformation.

i met neil Gaiman last year at a reading of stardust (just as the movie was coming out), Q and A and a book signing and the question i put to him was would he go on to retell any more of the great tales.

CatFang

Hey Norsefire1

I was waiting to reply until I had finished Grendel. I can’t thank you enough for recommending it to me. It has instantly become one of my favourite books (something which does not happen very often). I was so involved in it that I missed my tube stop on the way to work one morning, and only just got out of the doors on time on another day.

Obviously I am preaching to the converted here, but the language was incredible. I loved the idea of “men gone mad on art” and the fact that Grendel can “scare them to glory”.

I have always thought that there was something hovering around the idea of Grendel as Beowulf’s shadow, and the book takes this in a really interesting direction.

Anyway – you were interested in my ideas about transformation so a quick round up.

I think it is possible to view the poem as a journey to the apotheosis of Beowulf, where he begins as a man, becomes a hero, then a king, and is finally transformed into a god (or “ancestor” in a semi-divine sense).

So, he arrives at Heorot as man, albeit as kind of a “high human” who has already defeated sea monsters and trolls but these are part of the world so although this is noteworthy he is still not accorded the respect of a “hero proper”.

In defeating Grendel he proves his worthiness to descend/ascend to the next level under the tutelage of the Dark Goddess in the form of Grendel’s mother. I think one of the key indications of this, although it is not much more than a line or so in this poem (which I attribute to Christianity never letting us have nice things), is that a man’s sword is not sufficient for his task and instead he is able to wield the ancient sword of the giants. Although there seem to only be hints and echoes threaded through the sexualised language of the fight scene there are plenty of other myths that use such a pattern of the Dark Goddess as a military tutor / bestower of arms. The ability or draw / wield the “sword of the father” or “the sword of the ancients” is also a recurrent symbol in myth.

As a hero he then travels back home and by his deeds (although we do not have much detail of them) is eventually acclaimed King. I capitalise it as the idea of Kingship embodies, I think, something “other”.

As Beowulf fought his “man shadow” in Grendel, which allowed him the chance to transform into a hero, he must in the end confront and embrace his “king shadow” in the form of the dragon which allows him to move to the next state of “God or Ancestor” and takes his place under the mountain. I am guessing from your interests that you are familiar with the Jungian archetypes so the easiest way to think of what I mean is in terms of the Syzygy here.

You could also think of the transformations as first by water and then by fire, which of course would have resonances for the Christian apocalyptic visions of baptism and rapture while still allowing the poet to use the ideas of heroic trials familiar from the pagan stories. “What has Ingeld to do with Christ?” indeed!

As with other aspects of the poem I feel that this theme is echoed for other characters / clans / societies at different levels to reflect and amplify this. I think it is often females who are the instruments of transformation as well. For example, Wealtheow as a peace weaver with her mead bowl is able to transfigure the thanes into “men” rather than just another kind of animal or monster – the chosen of God’s creation. In the fragments Hildeburgh attempts to transform family relationships, although she fails, Freawaru is to be used to unite kingdoms etc. To cap it all the whole society is in a state of transformation and flux (both at the time of the poem with the immanent doom of the Geats after Beowulf’s death, prophesised by a woman – and the poet from an England balanced between a pagan past and a Christian future.

I think there is also something in the fact that the thanes have not recognised Grendel for what he really is and so fight him (these thoughts have been amplified by the Grendel book) and so cannot unite with their shadows. I think this is shown by the fact that they continue to fight him with swords which have no effect, whereas Beowulf fights him barehanded (and probably bare bodied) and kind of embraces him in order to defeat him. Of course there are other analogues for this kind of thing in northern myths where the fight is almost taking place in an other world / dream that the combatants are drawn into – such as in the stories of Bodvar Bjarki and the Dream of Rhonabwy etc

Why I was glad that you brought up Siegfreid is that he has the very common mythic transformation of access to knowledge (in his case the language of birds) by consuming something, as well the “father’s sword” trope. Think of Gwion, Fionn, Connla’s well, Mimir’s pool etc. I am kind of surprised this is not in Beowulf, especially as a reflection of the idea that Grendel comes to the hall and consumes the thanes in a monstrous parody of the idea of hospitality to guests.

I also wonder if as well as the smoke from Beowulf’s pyre rising to heaven possibly signifying his ascension / acceptance to the halls of his fathers, it also has some message of redemption for Grendel as the last of Cain’s kin? It was probably not meant this way, and is just my 20th century mind finding patterns that were not intended for the audience of the time – but I wonder if there is some kind of typological function here where, if you accept that Beowulf and Grendel were united to make the “hero Beowulf”, then perhaps God is finally accepting the sacrifice of Cain that he previously rejected. The anglo saxon translations of the bible are much less squeamish in translation about God eating sacrifices. This has further resonace with the story of Cain and Abel I think if the theory of the root of Beowulf’s name coming from the corn deity Beow, rather than the Bee Wolf idea is correct. Just a thought for discussion that one, really, I have not decided.

So, by the time I got to the end of that it was quite long (again). One day I will be able to write quick notes about my thoughts!

norsefire1

glad that you enjoyed Grendel so much, it is indeed a book that provokes a change of perspective on the subject of Beowulf which inturn in the most awesome way casts misfored shadows on cave walls that subverts the esotiric context and the language of the poem and in a larger context of the hero myth through its retelling and gives the reader a great transformative experience.

although i am sure that can not be used as valid excuse for being tardy for work. Smile

thankyou for takeing the time in expressing your idears on transformation within the poem.

i agree that the poem is indeed a journey to apotheosis all be it one that is very human, introspective quest from man to ubermensch.

for me at the point of where the hero is little more then a man, the feat or trail he undertakes is somewhat anecdotal in the quest for ascension, it is the esoteric weapons, such as Hrunting which are devices of office for the hero, placed on him for the reader, those involed in the words of the storyteller, that set the beowulf apart from the men of the mead hall. for me the ancient sword is embamatic of beowulf will, it is beowulfs will that wins out, he could always meet his doom, the placeing of hurnting on beowulf by the humbled (newly enlightened) unferth makes it clear to those are yet to gain or be conviced of beowulfs will power.

as for the idea of the tutelage of the dark goddess in the form of grendels mother in as far as in the context of transformation. it is an idea i like and there is much evidance of the dark goddess or fallen woman as shield maiden. although in my heart of hearts i must disagree with it.for me it the male (such as the unferth or the Merlin) who grants or guides the esoteric weapon on to the hero that by doing so the hero has (for want of a better expression) has his 3rd eye opened, which is then used as a tool with the sword for becomeing king (god). evidance can be found for this all over the hero myth. i place a lot of stock into the idea that the magic sword is the authentic narrative foil of the hero.

as for the idea of the application of the jungian archetype of the syzygy here it is an idea that i like, a lot. if i may put a little spin on it, i think the idea feeds into much of the issues of beowulf , idears of the symbiosis of the old gods of nature and the christ of rome, the nature and "right mind" and proper place of the male and female without one or the other loseing its own (dark age) context. and as you rightly pointed out there seems to be so much evidance for this, the mix of the old gods and the new. for Wealtheow to transform the id into the superman. which makes me wonder if one of the reasons of the poem was to bring about a symbiosis, or middle way between the changes within myth and ritual Question

as with the idea of how beowulf fights grendal and the thanes not being able to unite with there shadows and battle takeing place in a dream only adds to the idea of syzygy.

as i hinted at early on in this post i again agree that within the mythic transformation leads to the access of knowledge by haveing something placed on the hero or consuming of something, which feeds into the whole ritual thing, be it Mead or dragons blood. the idea of grendal consumeing the thanes as so kind of Black mass and a parody of hospitality i feel is there within beowulf be it latant. a refection of the trgedy of errors when the hospitality of man and the magic of the elf - kind meet as is found in most other northen myth.(also i think there is somthing about ritaul and makeing rash covenants here but i will have to have a think about it)

i think it would indeed be safe to say that the smoke from beowulfs pyre is the ascension into asgard. as for some kind of reconciliation between Grendel and Christ i am not to sure Question

although i would not reject it out of hand. although i am not sure if there is any real typological function going on in the poem. although as you say there is some evidance from saxon translations of the bible although i would say that this is a bit of a misreading, on further reading there seems very little evidance of this due to what Cains spilling Abels blood was emblamatic of that of vengance, where as christs blood was spilled for mercy, thus creating a new promise. (again with the whole ritaul/covenant thing)

CatFang

norsefire1

yes the subject of "landmark" books is very intresting. i was once told that if you read good stuff you will "produce" intresting thought provoking work, i think there is a little truth to that maxim. there have been a few books that have made a metamorphosis within my thinking, i would not go as far as to say that i have had any kind of "personal apotheosis" via a book,(save for the time i first read "god is dead and you have killed him") for me that has been due to the kingdom of the experintial.

it is indeed strange that the swords within beowulf never seem to be that useful, be they Human swords or magic swords, although this is not the only time within northen myth swords fail man, in the Arthurian legend king pellinore breaks the sword in the stone in two. i think what this would mean to a dark age audience a display the heroes opponents awesome martial skill that it will take the heroes introspective will to best his foe not by a sword, magic or otherwise.

i think there is indeed evidance to suggest that unferth is indeed a provides a Merlin archetype.in lines 1165 - 1168 of the poem he is called, bard or wiseman depending on the translation.
with unferth i think you are right in the bestowal of hurnting as his acceptance that he is "but a man" although by doing so it is though unferth's revalation that he is "but a man" and the act of unferth bestowing hurnting on to beowulf which in turn is a revalation unto beowulf that he gains the esoteric knowledge that he is ubermensch. the point that you bring up about unferth being a kinslayer himself and the relationship between the mark on cain, i think with this what is important to keep in the (dark age) mind is that unferth is a man and can be forgiven by christ due to the new covenant made at the cross, where as grendel is the offspring of the kin of cain and due to the rash covenant that cain made grendal is forsaken. i know this all sounds very christian but the more i think about the poem in its context the more i think this is one of the most imperative points the poem. yeah unferth rules in the latest film, infact i think he holds it up, but i would say that being a big unferth fan Smile

i do hope that in each retelling and new translations of beowulf it does still provide fruit for discussion like this for much more then a 1000 years and keep the barbarian alive in us all.

as for the idea of the makeing of rash covenants, i am finding a patten in lots of the old world myths, what this all means i am not to sure, but i think there is something in it Question

yeah i always feel that God is moveing the goal posts in the Torah, but the person i really feel soz for is lilith.

i have indeed read Alters annotated translations of the book of moses very intresting stuff indeed. i think the idea of "consuming" is indeed a large theme within both testaments and feeds in to lots of points that has been lost in time, and is something that is put over quite strongly in the dark ages and later through to Dante.

its strange you bring up the 2005 Beowulf and grendal, i have indeed seen it infact i had it imported about a year ago, and i keep on meaning to ask if you and cy had seen it and if you had what you thought of it. i must say i really do like it, a shame that you did not. why i like it is due to that i see the movie as a commentary on the poem itself. i to have read that grendel was used as a source, which i think again the point of the movie is as a commentary. the landscapes where awesome.what did you think of the trolls Question

CatFang

yeah - actually I had been thinking about the breaking of the sword from the stone when I was writing that last post - I must have got distracted and forgotten to mention it.

I see a connection between Grendel's mother and the Lady of the Lake - this is what I was thinking of, among other things, when I was talking about the female as bestower of arms before.

When I get home I will have another look at those lines about Unferth. Maybe his role as a wiseman is why he was vilified in a poem that, while it celebrates the "noble pagan", is, after all from a Christian time.

Poor Grendel. No Zombie god blood for him then Crying or Very sad

Surely he should have been able to repent in the same way that it was considered possible for the dogheads to do so? Poor Lilith as well! I would so rather be a Shield Maiden than a peaceweaver! Along those lines what did you think of Eowyn in the film of LOTR.

I am enjoying the idea that we both liked the film version of Unferth - but you because you like him, and I because I dislike him, from the poem Very Happy

I wonder how similar our book shelves look?

IN the 2005 Grendel I liked the trolls as trolls, but they were not Grendel for me. Also the loss of Grendel's mother was a big shame for me. The witch was an interesting addition, and a replacement in some ways, I guess, and the idea of Grendel as the father - but this really made me want to know the story of his child. I liked the drunken Hrothgar, especially as he disintegrates at the end. Stellan Skarrsgaard is always great though. In this version of course the humans are directly to blame for Grendels' actions - and the portrayal of human arrogance vs "nature" was an interesting spin. I think I found that Beowulf's sensibilities and revelations are too modern, though. He certainly underwent a voyage of discovery, possibly a harder one than that of origianl poem, but I want my dark age legends more viseceral!

We are thinking of maybe going to Iceland this year, so maybe we will see some trolls of our own!

Have you seen the version with Christopher Lambert? I haven't but I may track it down.

norsefire1

i like the connection between Grendels mother and the lady in the lake, espacially if one to follow to follow some versions of the myth which ponder on who the lady is and that they share attributes with other maid at arms in myth, such as Thetis mother to the mighty dyonisan hero Achilles coupled with the suggestion that the lady in the lakes origins are pagan. yeah i can go with that idea.

i think with Unferth, i like to think of him more as bard then vilified wiseman and i think that this bard has the choice to admit that he is "but a man" and takes time to celebrate will the overman as must the audience/reader of the poem must pay homage to beowulf.

No zombie god blood for grendal Smile

no, none for grendel whatsoever, now in there, there is a huge conversation to be had about myth and ritual, about the blood of Christ, the spilling Blood by the forsaken Cain. and the grail... and as for the dogheads, you just had to bring up the dogheads Smile

in the Talmud for me any talk about Dogs within the bible can not have any kind of literal meaning, which i know sounds mad i know being as the Talmud is a book rabbinic musings on ethics and law, which are lets face it quite literal things but i feel in the books context dogs when used are clearly used as a allegory.

as for what i think Eowyn, first off i thought that Miranda otto was ace, she walked right out the book in the page, liked her a lot. thought what they did with her in the extended movies was a much better job then in the movie house, and i thought she had some awesome bits with the lost heir of Gondor and grima i felt that in the film they kind of made her much more of shield Maiden then the book, where she is a anachronism of an edwardian tomboy. although giving it a secound thought i do feel in the film they mad her a bit of a silly now and then. Question

what did you think of what they did to the spirited but oh so alone Eowyn Question

i imagine that our book shelves are very much like parallel universes, alike but not.

i thought that the witch was an intresting idea to, i thought that the trolls were very good, although i did feel at times they did belong to a bbc kids drama about misunderstood trolls. Horthgar ruled and i thought that the talk between him and the celtic christian was awesome, skarrsgard is one of my fav actors, the only good thing in the lateist king arthur as the saxon warlord. yes the war between human arrogance vs nature was a cool.i dont recall beowulfs sensibilities and revelations to mordern, with that said has been a while since ive seen it. something to look out for on the next viewing.

i have indeed seen the christopher lambert version although to quote a fast show character "i was very, very drunk" a few years ago, so i dont recall much i must see it again at somepoint, like your self i may get a copy. i think its about 5 english pounds last time i looked. as a foot note to this i know xena delt with the beowulf story and also the ring cycle as well.

CatFang

Although they are more Celtic than AS or Norse there are quite a few watery war /weapons women around. Of course there are also plenty of celtic versions of the "sleep with the apparent hag for the sake of knowledge and she then turns out to have been a beautiful woman all along" - interesting in the light of Grendel's mother in the recent film, no? Yeah, the Lady in The Lake has definite pagan heritage, I think.

This bring me to another thought, though. How much do artists of any time or type consciouslyy follow archetypal patterns (such as the heores journey), or decide to use certain devices in their work, and how many do it unconsciously just as a part of being a human story teller? On the other hand how many of the patterns we see are brought to a story from the outside? I will see a myth of the wasteland in anything given the slightest glimmer of a chance Very Happy

I had a look at the lines about Unferth. What a fascinating puzzle. He appears in the story so briefly,yet his influence in the story somehow is much greater. It is surprising when you actually go back and find the handful of lines where he is actually "on camera" so to speak.

What is it about him that does this? Is it because he is more "human" than the other characters of kings and heroes and monsters? Is this kind of jealousy and then reconiliation and almost worship an example of how we would react to someone like Beowulf? Maybe when Unferth gives him the Hrunting it is almost as it he is accepting Beowulf as proxy or champion and so letting us, the audeince, know that we are to do the same and so can, guiltless, take part vicariously in Beowulf's exploits.

Of course we know how much the Anglo-Saxons loved riddles and puns, and his name can equally be read as "witless" or "soul-less" or "Eloquent" or "great- souled". I had never made that connection before you mentioned it. Now I am exasperated that we know so little about him.

Although I did not have this in mind when I asked your thoughts on Eowyn yesterday these thoughts about Unferth promted me to think about Grima and Theoden. I have an idea for an alternate reading of him - which I very much doubt is valid, but see what you think. If Unferth is a counseller or "speaker" and also a kinslayer do you think he could be read as more allied with Grendel - whispering to Hrothgar that he is a weak old man and he is better to leave Heorot shut up? When Beowulf turns up he is understandably put out, not only is he put to shame as a man, but his counsel will be shown as lies or weakness (un-wit). However in the end he realises his error and is reconciled with Beowulf and the Hall and redeemed? Or maybe if he is a bard he is perturbed to find a legend he has sung tales of striding up to his front door! Laughing

In the film of LOTR I thought that Eowyn, like Faramir, was made more believable as a character. As you said she was kind of a cartoon tomboy (although Tolkien's women are all somewhat "unreal"), and Faramir was kind of an idelaised boyscout in the book. And they end up together as well. I particularly liked her scenes with Grima, and the shot of her alone outside Meduseld with the haunting music as the banners blow in the wind. I wanted a bit more valkyrie though. More Brynhilde... but then maybe if they had done that then she would not have been able to seem fragile and alone as well. I do feel a bit sorry for Faramir though - he may not ever know it but she "settles" for him when she cannot get Aragorn.

oooh - the grail... that is one of my favourite things...if we get started on that and blood rituals then this thread will get longer than that Tony Stark one and there will only be the two of us on it! I may have lots to say about Beowulf but the Arthurian cycles are my "specialist subject"!

While I am thinking about the Arthurian stuff - yes Stellan Skarsgaard was the only good thing in what I thought was an absolute abortion of a film! How they could make a film on that subject and it be boring defies me. How they could make it and be boring to me opens a rift in reality! *looks back on Excalibur with dewy eyes*. OK - it was silly, but in a great, great way... and I was a young teenager when I first saw it so that excuses my nostalgia!

I love dogheads. Best of all I like the story that st Christopher was one Wink

and I agree - dogs in the bible are more than dogs in the bible if you see what I mean - and I think you do.

I liked Xena, but I never followed it - if it was on the tv when I turned it on I would watch it. I don;t think I saw hardly any of the later series which I am told got quite dark. I completely missed any episodes to do with Beowulf or the Ring though. I wonder if I can find them ...

Now I am off to see if I can add that other Beowulf to my rental list...

norsefire1

i think that is a very intresting question that you bring to the table there about "artists" useing archetypal patterns or useing cultural devices

with that said i think it is safe to say no story teller worth his or worth construct work which is unconscious, unless that story teller is melvyn peake. haveing said that i do agree that patterns that are placed within the great metanarratives from the outside be it if your a dark age/celtic bard or T S Elliot, glad i am not the only person who see's the wasteland in most any myth i read Smile

Unferth is in did an fascinating puzzle, i think what makes this so is that as you rightly say he is maybe the "most human" maybe more human then human. although i think it goes to far to suggest that Unferth is takeing part vicariously in beowulfs toil. but i am happy that he maybe some kind of everyman.

i think also your point about the As loveing riddles and puns with the ambiguous nature of the kinslayer, i would like to think that this is a two part concept at work here. it is clear that unferth is a man of contrasts, i think it is device of the bard/author of the poem to show unferths accepting of beowulf as a huge act of being humble. also i would like to think that the fact that Unferth's name is an ambiguous one leads the reader to muse that he is maybe some form of bard/wiseman. i do ponder on unferths part in the poem haveing been cut down over time when the poem went from being told to being put down with the pen.

i must admit when you asked me about what my thoughts on Eowyn i did think about the poor mans Unferth in Grima in all of this. i dont think that unferth can ever be read as a collaborator with Grendel, knowingly or not. i think unferth is (unlike grima) is trying to do the best for his king, i dont think his counsel is lies, weak maybe but not lies.

i could not agree more with what you have to say about Faramir in the book.yes eowyn at the gates of Meduseld with the flag and that score, i think i hear that bit of music just about every day...awesome. yes it would of been cool to see more of the valkyrie i did see early art that in the two towers (movie) that she did get in there at the battle of helms deep. i also feel a bit sorry for faramir.but not so much does also amuse me as well, kind of got this feeing Tolkien got himself in a hole he didnt quite know how to write himself out of.

yes i concour that if we start talking about the grail it would be one large subject. i would as well consider arthuriana as being my "specialist subject".

on the arthurian stuff, yes latest king movie could only be what you named it. an abourtion. excalibur is awesome, best seen when at 3 years old or about 14...magic Very Happy

the Merlin rules. Very Happy

i am sure you have read it but have you read "warriors of the wasteland : a quest for the pagan sacrificial cult behind the Grail legends" by john grigsby.

what is is the arthurian cycle that you rate above others Question

i really enjoy xena, i am thinking of collecting it again the later series is where the gold is at. if this helps at all the episodes that deal with beowulf and the ring cycle are

season 6

7 : the rheingold
8 : the ring
9 : return of the valkyrie

CatFang

I found the expansion of Unferth's character in Grendel very poignant. It would be fascinating if someone gave him the "grendel treatment" and wrote the story from his point of view. In fact, I think what we need is like a whole multi-media cycle of the poem where you can access the events from the points of view of all the characters, flip between them, try out "what ifs" - all sorts of things like that. It would be awesome. Laughing

I really wished that when they did the merchandise for the LOTR film that they were going to make the Meduseld banners - no such luck. Tatty looking jewelery (although I thought Arwen's necklace looked cheap in the film anyway), but no banners Crying or Very sad

Yes, the Grail "no one who sets out on the quest remains unchanged" isn't it? There must be a comic or movie somewhere we can start a thread about in the pretence of talking about it and then swerve it off to old myth cycles Very Happy

Having said that have you read any of the Beowulf comics that have been done over the years, and if so have you found any good ones? I don't have the adpatation of the latest film, but no others I have read have really done it for me. Perhaps it need P Craig Russell? I wonder if he does requests?

I couldn't possibly tell you what my favourite of the Arthurian cycles is. IN general I prefer the older stuff with the strong other-worldy connections rather than the "historical" versions - Arthur as myth is more important to me than Arthur as man. My favourite character has to be Gawain and I bear a grudge against Chretian de Troyes for beginning the downfall of Gawain at the expense of Lancelot - who generally gets on my nerves a bit - although the sword bridge is a very good story. I know the two characters fulfil different roles, but still...

As you might imagine I especially love the Merlin centered materials, particularly the older poetry that makes him something much wilder.

Of course you can't think about Merlin without The Once and Future King popping into your head. I think of the John Gardner Grendal in the same sort of space in my head as an expansion of the story.I do hate the Disney version (which should not be a surprise given they ruin just about every good story they get their hands on!). I also hate that nearly everyone thinks Excalibur is the sword in the stone - grrr. My - I am very hate filled this afternoon!

I remember reading Mary Stewart's Crystal cave sequence as well when I was about 12 or 13 and we were on holiday in Wales - that was brilliant. See - now all my hatred is gone.

Yes, I've read warriors of the wasteland. It must be at my parents as I can't find it with my other Arthur books having had a bit of a rummage. I must remember to pick it up when I am next there. Celts and their head cults, hey?

I take you have read the Slaine / Arthurian crossover (is it Treasures of Britain,? I can't check my bookshelves from here). I really liked the Dermot Power art. His Arthur is exactly as I imagined him to be.

Oh no - now a whole train of thought has started about the Green Knight and Grendel and I am at work so can't get into it...but the "monster at the feast" is something that is common to many things. Gawain and the Green Knight is one of my favourite ever things.

I really want them to do Gawain and the Green Knight in the same technology as Beowulf. But who to play Gawain...I will have to have a think.

Have you seen the film that has Sean Connery as the Green Knight? I think it might even be Prince Valiant? Quite an old film.

I will try and track down those Xena episodes

So, that was quite a long ramble taking in lots of different things!

norsefire1

when i think of Unferth in Grendel (and cos of that book in beowulf as a whole) i think there is a synchronicity at work. i think your idea of someone telling Unferths tale would be supergood. i like the idea of some kind of metanarrative with Beowulf. sounds well subversive, in a good way. although i am not quite sure i want to see wealthow's turn of events. which may turn out a little like kichen sink realism Smile

there are indeed banners of the rohan out there if you are after one, 4 verying ones i think Question

, from the movie. with the jewelery i just can not get over why people want to buy the master ring to put wear Question

a portent of evil. mad.

i have read one or two "beowulf" comics over the years, the last one that i got was the film adpatation. i think your right, that they never ever kind of get it right, i think P craig russell could be the man to make it work. i hope he does do requests cos i have a list... Smile

i think your right arthur as the myth is so much more important then arthur the man. other then the Merlin i think my fav character is percival, i think the tale in the Mabinogion "peredur son of Efrawg" is awesome. which is strange cos Chretian de Troyes did a "job" on percival as well, yeah i am not a fan of Lancelot as well.

the older poems of the Merlin are fantastic. the whole mad man in the woods vibe. great.

i am sure you have all ready, but as the Grendal Book and the idea of verying protaganists is being disscussed have you read "the Mists of Avalon" by the Marion Zimmer Bradly Question

it is told from the point of view of Morgan le Fay. (to which there is a t.v movie also, but only put out in the usa)

yes you cant think of the merlin without thinking of the once and future king. yes the once and future king, a silly and childish over simple saga on how man should rule itself. and people have got problems with C.S lewis Question

dont get me started on white. what makes me sick about the saga is when civil law takes over trail by combat, what a daft insidious pacification of the myth and the outlook of the dark age's. yes the Disney version is poor, as was there take on the prydain chronicles. i am feeling that hate Exclamation

although i think it is useful to place the once and future king as the same kind of book as grendal.

Stewarts Crystal cave saga is awesome, i think this was one of the first books that i read that placed the myth out of the romance and well into the dark ages. did you ever see the BBC's take on these books Question

i had the VHS as i child, they where seen to death. i wonder if its out on DVD Question

will have to have a look.

yes the Arthur in the Slaine/Arthurain crossover is quite good.

yes the theme of "monster at the feast" is indeed common, you have me pondering on much about such things now. i would like to hear what you have to say about sir Gawain and green knight.

i recall the first time i read Sir Gwain and the Green knight i was sat on Glastonbury Tor on a late spring afternoon, with sun out within the context that on that Morning i had been hearing lectures on the importance of the Tor and the Finding of the Grail.

strange that you say you would like to see Gwain and the Green knight in the same tec as Beowulf cos when i met neil Gaiman he said that "green knight" would be the tale he would want to retell (i may of posted this before Confused

)

i have indeed seen "Sword of the valiant : the legend of of sir Gwain and the green knight" i think the last time i did i was about 6 Question

so i will have to hunt that out on dvd.

CatFang

Maybe it could be that Wealtheow is an arch political manipulator – the spider at the centre of a web of intrigue and interclan destinies …nah, prob’ly not now I think of it…

Really – banners of Rohan? I never found any. I will have another look. As far as wall hangings go, though, I am about to get a beauty. If you remember when we met in Canterbury there was a girl with us with long dark hair. She does seriously cool quilting (discard anything you have ever though about quilts and think wall hanging or textile art) and I she is selling one of her original pieces to me. We are talking about the possibility of doing a “Beowulf interlace” thing together – me to draw it and her to make it using materials and fabrics that would have been available at the time.

As for wearing the one ring. My problem with it is what is that supposed to say about the person wearing it? I think it is something like..."yeah, I might just look like nobody, but really I am Sauron the mighty and I could ....yeah...if I wanted..." Sad, very sad, and so against the spirit of the very book they are supposed to like...sigh.

Let’s kidnap P Craig Russell and make him draw mythic adaptations for us. I mean he would be kind of a slave, but it is not like we would make him live in a dungeon or anything…he would have a nice life…y’know, for a slave…

Wow yeah – the Mabinogion another great classic. Once, late at night (on Channel 4 I think) I stumbled across what seemed to be an animated version of it, linked to some children in the “real world” shot on film. It had already started, though, and I fell asleep before the end so it remains a mystery. Oooh, ooh – after they have done Gawain as mo-cap they could do the whole Mabinogion…in fact I can see needing an army of slaves!

[quote=”norsefire1”]the older poems of the Merlin are fantastic. the whole mad man in the woods vibe. great. [/quote]

Riding on a stag – yay!

Actually I am rewatching the Box of Delights at the moment (the old BBC series from the mid eighties). Even then I thought it was not as good as the book, but even now the nightmare sequence is pretty scary. Brrr. Anyway – I thought of it as it has a Herne sequence that has a much friendlier version of the Taliesin transformation through the animals story and the stags are lovely. In fact there was a real trend for “romantic pagan” childrens’ books around the 70s to mid eighties, wasn’t there? Think Alan Garner, Susan Cooper etc. Now we have Harry Potter *spit*

You know I have never read The Mists of Avalon. We have do have a copy that I think Cy inherited from somewhere, and based on how much I liked Grendel I will read it if you recommend it. I think I was always put off by how it is described as a “feminist interpretation” which I took as a by word for “dull and worthy” – and partly by some people I knew who always went on about it and they were very much “part of the sisterhood” – which I always react against.

I didn’t ever see a TV adaptation of the Crystal Cave books. Did you find if it was out on DVD?

Cy has what I think is a good theory about why it can be so hard to put myth / fantasy on film which is to do with the specifics of film (ie this is real person playing a part) vs the archetypal nature of the characters. Right now I can’t remember the word that means the opposite of archetype – which would have made my sentence neater! So basically if you draw or animate or describe a character it is kind of a “creature of art” still “outside time and specifics” but on film you are “fixing” it somehow and in pinning it down to a real person it loses the “potential” inherent in an archetype. Live drama can work of course as it is much more representational you have much more of a sense of the actor “wearing the mask” or “taking on the role” than you do in film (for the most part) where an actor “is” the character rather than “temporarily representing the character”. Did any of that make sense? If you meet Cy again you will have to ask him as he expresses it much better than that!

Oooh – I am jealous. That is such a great way to have first experienced Gawain and the Green Knight. There is so much to say about it I don’t know where to start, and this post is already really long. I will say though that if Beowulf is an exploration of tension between the 2 worlds / ways then Gawain and The Green Knight really “turns it up to 11”. To sum up I think it is (mainly) about the fact that humans cannot escape nature and they should not try to set themselves above it. Like Beowulf I think the poet still has a foot in the “old ways” and plays with the contrasts fantastically although he was almost undoubtedly a Christian of some stripe - especially if he also wrote the other poems in the same codex. Those northern English Christians still had quite a lot of pagan in their hearts, if not their minds, though! In this light I find the choice of Gawain as hero interesting as there is definitely some sort of god creature striding behind him.

We must talk about this some more. And then we can stitch together Beowulf, Siegfreid and Arthur…like a kind of mythological 7 steps to Kevin Bacon

I bought Sword of The Valiant from whatever for £4!

norsefire1

i dont see wealtheow as an arch political manipulator dealing with intrigue. although thinking off the top of me head i think see has some kind of huger for power and i think this works within the context of her gender role.

i hope that the search for the banners of the horse lords yields results. yes i do recall the person that you mentioned in your last post. the wall hanging seems to be all very exciteing, what subject matter or motif does the work that you are buying have Question

the idea of producing a work useing your idea of the "beowulf interlace" design sounds very, very cool and creating a work utilizing the fabrics and materials of the early middle ages sounds a stroke of excellence. although it sounds like a huge task.

there seems to be a lot truth in what you said about people wearing the ring of power. a mass market seems to miss the point. Crying or Very sad

i dont think people understand that there diluting the very imprearative of the mythic cycle.

yeah the plan for more mythic adapations for us sounds like a good one Exclamation

although what to put to paper first Question

yeah, that animated version of the Mabinogion sounds very cool,it does ring a bell, will have to look it up. C4 seem to excel in puting greatness on at stupid o' clock, some of my most fav movies i discovered at 3am on C4. oh tristan and isolde needs to be added to the Mo-Cap list, i think there should be some kind of CGI sweatshop going on Exclamation

yes the box of delights, yes not as good as the book, but still badass. yes herne in it rules

"herne the hunter, keep your lions away from my unicorns Exclamation

"

yes i think your right about the PG version of the Taliesin going on in the show. yeah i think that that "romantic pagan" going on with books and i think t.v at the time had a massive impact on fantasy as a whole. i think that Robin of sherwood and what it had to say created a profound effect on my thinking (if i am lucky on sunday i hope to meet nasir... sorry i mean actor mark ryan at a con over the weekend Very Happy

) but yeah so much good stuff going on at that time, been thinking for a while i should go back and re read the lot. strange you name that magic grange hill harry potter here cos if i know someone who is makeing the mistake of reading that rot i will always suggest a "romantic pagan" book after to take away the bad taste that there left with.

the Mists of Avalon is well worth the read. please dont be put off by it being a a "feminist interpetation" (which it is) but i have spent a fair while in study of the menagerie of idea's which "make up" feminist theory and the last words that i would use to place on the mists of avalon as "dull and worthy" like Grendal it is a tale that desires to be told from another point of view so that the reader can to gain that insight.

i did look up the BBC adaptation of merlin and the crystal cave and no luck as yet. although in looking i have found out about a movie named Merlin and the Dragons made in 1991.

i think that Cy has a real point about it being hard to put myth onto film. this is a subject that i am very intrested in. i think he has hit the nail on the head with the idea of live action movie. with live drama and its representatioal stylings i think that there is potential with the same problems, strange that this subject has come up cos i wil be going to see the Lord of the rings stage play soon, so i shall reserve judgment on that although i think with the drama cy is right. from this could one extrapolate that animation be it in 2d or 3d is the true way to bring myth to the screen Question

by christ there is indeed much to say on sir gawain and the green knight and i think that you are right about the tensions of the two worlds/ways being imperative to the work. iam not sure about what what you have to say about nature there but i think you are indeed right that the poet has a foot and maybe alittle more in the old ways and indeed plays with the contrasts that the middle ages brings. yes the monasticism of the north of england was always a strage turn of events in the middle ages.yes i think that gwain does have "something" behind him.

i will ponder on the idea of hasty covents in the context of Gwain... and beowulf.

that is a awesome price for the sword of the valiant.

CatFang

Wow! Our posts get longer and longer, don't they? So many ideas...so little space!

I was joking about Wealtheow - although she is very concerned for the rights of her sons. I don't think she will come to a happy end though (mind you, happy endings is not really what that literature was about, is it Very Happy

) given the warning from the past about Hildeburgh and the premonition of doom about Freawaru. Maybe the tribes can never find peace until they find the "true god"?

I am meeting Ferret next weekend at the Bristol Con so hopefully we will a chance to talk about it more then. I have not quite yet decided what the different strands will be, but the idea is to have a kind of interlace pattern with each strand being either a key theme or key character's path in the story, with intersections where they overlap. Grendel's mother will be right in the middle as the "pivot". Quite how abstract / illustrative it will be yet has not been decided. Actually once I have thought about it a bit more I will ask your opinion on the strands and how they fit toegether, if you don't mind.

There is also more to her being the person to work on this with than the fact that she is a good quilter - she is also a leather and metal worker and she (and Robin, her boyfriend who was with her that day) follow some sort of version of "Norse beliefs". She is a bit of a weaponsmith as well, actually, and we are also supposed to arrange a time when she can help us to attach hilt to some swords Cy and I made at a Dark Age sword forging day. Now, that was really cool. I really did get to "draw the sword from the stone" and was in raptures.

Anyway - the piece of hers that I am buying is called Decadence and here is a link to it in her online Portfolio I am going to take a guess that you remember the song "scarlet inside"? That is what this says to me. I think it is about the red animal under the skin.

I say we have P Craig Russell start on Beowulf. I mean, I am tempted to just jump right in with Arthurian stuff, but Beowulf is nice and enclosed to get into the swing of things Evil or Very Mad

Have you seen Arthur Rackham's illustrations of the Ring Cycle? You can get them all collected in a nice little art book.

Yay - Nasir. I was just telling Cy about this and we were saying that back in the days of Robin of Sherwood his sword work looked so amazing - of course we hadn't seen any Asian cinema then Very Happy

What is the con? Anyone else cool going to be there?

"magic grange hill" - heh! Laughing

My problem with Harry Potter is that there is never any sense of risk or danger. Also Harry is just a bit "meh". They should all go and get some books with proper heroes in, or at the very least a bit of darkness! What do you think of Phillip Pullman? I like His Dark Materials a lot.

I'll have a rummage for Mists of Avalon then. Got several things to read first though.

When you say the Lord of The Rings stage show do you mean the new musical? I'd be interested here what it is like. I do think animation is the best way to get mythc ideas across on a screen. Nowadays there is not just the assumption that "oh - is that a cartoon, it must be for kids...". Probably we have anime to thank for that.

What I mean by "nature" in the GGK is that it has always read to me (one llevel, as it has many, but this one seems very loud) that it is kind of a cautionary tale. It seems to say "men are part of nature and the cycles of life, no matter how many stone castles you build, how many codes of chivalry you live by, how far your new religion tells you that you are something above the animal, you are not. You are bound to the cycles of the seasons, to birth and death, to blood and flesh and fear and pain and sexual desire. To be true to yourself is to acknowledge that you are all this, and only by doing so can you ever be more." I think it is a quest for self knowledge - "you have to see it for yourself" and that when Gawain returns to Camelot and the other knights accept wearing of the girdle as if Gawain has been their champion in a "trial of humanity" there is an implication that they are missing the point. The question of how you can be a hero and a Christian has not been answered for me. My heroes don't bow to anyone.

What I love about GGK is that the protagonists are such complex characters in themselves with so many layers of history to them. Green is a tricky colour as well Very Happy

I will have think about rash covenants as well, so interested to hear your thoughts.

Talking about "things having something behind them" after reading the Alter bible translations I am sure there is a water god behind Moses somewhere!

norsefire1

indeed are posts do seem to get longer, so in the words of led zeppelin its time to ramble on..

sorry i didnt see that you where jokeing about wealthrow. i am a bit rubbish, trying to sort out car trouble whilst posting yeastaday. i think you have have a point about the tribes not finding peace untill they find the one true god, a very clear reacurring motif where monothism and myth meet.

with the beowulf "interlace pattern", its all sounding very interesting with Grendals mother in the centure. i do not mind at all on giveing my opinion on the strands. once you have made a choice on which strands you wish to utilise, let me know when your ready and i shall have a think.

it sounds like your friend is indeed more then qualified as it where to co create your idea. the dark age sword forging day sounds so cool, i can not guess how awesome drawing the sword from the stone was. a process i have only seen at liveing history events.

the piece that you are buying from Ferret fabrications, thankyou for sending the link very, very cool stuff, kind reminds me as a whole of a subversive rennie macintosh, very arts and crafts. but yes i absoultey see what you mean by what the piece is saying in relation to "scarlet inside". will scarlet is a character that delights me, or should i say the evolution of the character in art though the ages.

yeah your right lets get P Craig Russell to do beowulf first. cos i am getting well carried away with projects... Smile

i have indeed the awesome Arthur Rackhams of the ring cycle, which is your fav illustration from those works Question

i like the sigfried being warned by the rhinemaidens (which is my wallpaper at the mo) and Brynhilder being visited by Waltraute.

the con that i hope to meet Nasir...sorry actor mark ryan, hes just an actor norsefire1 hes not Nasir in reality Smile

the con is collectormania in milton keynes, there are a bunch of cast from torchwood and heroes as well.

i think my problem with Harry Potter is the magic, the way its treated, the way that the magic in harry's universe does not seem to have any consequenes or any real unforseen ramifications, there is no "bad luck" magic if you see what i mean Question

there is no sacred or profane with what harry potter world does with magic, magic does not fill the air, its not in the word and the will its mundane, a labor saveing device and nothing more and harry as a hero is well wet, your right. ive been on a strange old trip with the works of Pullman, but all in all i think what he has done with his dark materials is a profound work. trying to bring the pieces back togeather and try rediscover and reconcile communication between us all is a massive achievement. have you read his sally lockhart mysteries Question

i get a great deal out of those. have you read once upon a time in the north yet Question

i do indeed mean the lord of the rings musical, you saw straight though my ruse Smile

i just felt that i should see it before it closed just to see whow it stands up. i shall tell you about it once ive seen it. i agree that animation is the way to put myth up there on screen.

i agree that GGk (nice abbreviation by the way Smile

) is indeed a cautionary tale. and indeed a quest for self knowledge but not of knowlege of the self if you see what i mean. the things you have to say are far from the conclusions that i am createing about GGK. i hope to address them when i am ready to write up on GGK. i am re reading from ritual to romance and GGK before i come up with anything solid. the question that you pose about how can be one be a hero and a christion is indeed an intresting one and one i hope to go into a bit when i comment on GGK. alas all heroes bow down to someone or something. even the great chaotic heroes Achilles and sigfried bow down to themselves.

yes the complex charcters are what makes GGK, and i was just reading about Green before i posted. its well tricky Smile

CatFang

Well, I hope you had a good time meeting Nasir (that is actor Mark Ryan!) today.

Wow - From Ritual to Romance, that was like my handbook for my A level dissertation. I know it very well. I wonder if it is here or at my parents...I will have a look for it.

My favourite pics from the Arthur Rackham Ring illustrations are Brynhilde with Grane hiding in the trees and observing, Loki setting the magic flames around her bier, Odin on Sleipnir (the legs just work so well) and Brynhilde riding up onto Seigfried's pyre. They are all so good, though, that is really impossible to choose, this is the shortest list I could get it down to.

I have read the Sally Lockhart books. I think they suffered a bit from my having read His Dark Materials first, but I still enjoyed them, although the last one didn't engage me as much as the first 3. Sally is a really good character - and I wouldn't have expected an opium addicted single mother as the heroine of a children's book Very Happy

I like the way Pullman does not talk down to a young audience and keeps things nice and dark. He does brilliant female villains which are rare in new children's fiction I think. I didn't see the tv adaptation but I did hear it was a bit rubbish.

I haven't read once upon a time in the north yet. I remember hearing about it a while back and had forgotten it til just then.

I'll have another look over GGK as well so we can have a good chat about it.

norsefire1

meeting Nasir yeastaday was great, he is a really nice guy.

yeah from ritual to romance was a bit of a handbook for me during the time i was studying T.S elliot's the wasteland.

yeah i think with pullmans books, if you have read one series of his first the other seems to be a 2nd rate. i felt this like yourself but i read the Sally Lockhart books first (adoreing anything that resembles vitctoriana in the media of the penny deadful) what i really admire about Pullman most is his understanding of the attributes of the victorian (anti) hero and antaganist and the other literary conventions that make up the penny dreadful, and how on the page Lockhart and her chums feel like there very much of that tradition. reading the ruby in the smoke felt authentic, the same vibe i got just like the the first time i had read a scandal in bohemia. i like aswell the way pullman connects to the reader, again i agree that he can do an awsome female villain. which are a homage to such proto - femme fatale's such as Irene Adler and Fah Lo Suee. i quite like both tv adaptation's. although the first is a little slow. i have them both on dvd. in a boxset. they do change one or to things, but worth the viewing.

i have come up with a few idears about GGK and a Point about use/imagrey of the green knight within GGK that i have thought up but to rush them down onto the page would make them sound over simplelistic, will have to do a little more reading look over the work again and ponder some more but i am very intrested to read what you have to say about the imagrey of the green knight.

CatFang

Haven't fprgotten about this - just had loads to do to get ready for Bristol.

Will get back to it next week.

Also - norsefire1 have you read the System of The world trilogy by Neil Stephenson?

norsefire1

hope you and cy have a good time at the con.

i have yet to read the Baroque cycle but it on the list, thats for sure. thanks for reminding me about these works, i first heard of them a little while back but i had forgot about them. have you read the the versuvius club and the devil in in amber by Mark Gatiss Question

i picked up a book the other day, when i went to to see the Lord of the rings stage play called "isolde queen of the western isle" by Rosalind Miles, i have yet to read it, but as i understand it, the book is told though the eyes of isolde. Roasalind Miles has also done a trilogy of books about Guenevere as well.

now the lord of the rings stage play. what an awsome play. not really a musical asuch. the music acts very much glamour of middle earth and what magic it is the music is composed by finlands most successful folk band Varttina. the costume and creatures of middle earth are great. much more of a Dark age fell to the costume then the movies has. we where greeted as we sat down 15mins before by hobbits trying to find "fireflys" around the stage, one was trasported to middle earth. we where 3 rows from the front on an a aisle seat to we felt the heat of the shadow and flame in the mines of moria and had the venom of shelob spat in the audience. in style it takes a lot from baskshi's movie. if one where to approach it like a concept album being played out on stage one would not be dissaponted. for 3hrs i was in the 3rd age of middle earth Very Happy

almost finalised my thoughts on GGK.

Beowulf

Re: Beowulf