It's always been one of those funny things about Alan Moore's work, where just about every important book he's written has at least one rape scene in it. But now I've learned that the upcoming League of Extraordinary Gentlemen issue is going to feature gang-rape, and I have to ask whether Moore's gross overuse of rape is actually devaluing the nature of rape and its consequences.
I don't have any personal problems with sex or controversial material in comics, but apart from Watchmen, I can't think of a book where Moore has actually explored the trauma of rape and its emotional consequences. Past League of Extraordinary Gentlemen books have been particularly bad, with the rapes (or intended rapes) having absolutely no consequence. It's starting to look like Moore's doing it for shock value, and I have a problem with that. Rape is not like other violent crimes where proof can easily be found and criminals brought to justice. Rape is a hidden crime, where the only proof lies with the victim to find the confidence to bring charges. To not deal with this position makes rape look less traumatic that it is. It looks to me like Moore is normalising rape, unintentionally of course.
Reaper
I knew a guy once who didn't understand why women found rape to be so traumatic.... Couldn't understand how he had managed to have a steady relationship and children.
Oddly enough we don't speak now
cosmic hobo
i dont wish to sound like censorship man here but my god why is this even a subject here what the f***!!!!! i think that there may be one or two iconoclasts out there on this forum right know i dont wish to comment on the issue or its conseqences, and i dont wish to stop a debate on the subject but come on the claim that an artist as brilliant as Alan moore is "normalising" the crime is just irrational and provocative in the most gross way, both to Moore and gives a negitive perception of comics readership.
i guess what i am saying is a bit of thought-e thought-e before post-e post-e.
"people demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use" - kierkegaard.
Raien
Cosmic Hobo, are you seriously arguing that the quality of Alan Moore's writing makes him above criticism? No, I'm not going to be a sheep and make extreme claims like the suggestion that Moore's depiction of rape might be insensitive is "giving a negative perception of all comic book readers". I'm going to state my mind because that's what a forum is for. I'm going to state my mind because I do feel that Alan Moore's depiction of rape is often, aside from Watchmen, insensitive.
Rape has extreme emotional consequences for the victims, because it is both traumatic and a strong symbol of power inequality. Watchmen dealt with this respectfully by elaborating on Silk Spectre's reaction to her rape by the Comedian. Other rape scenes from Moore, on the other hand, have had no such consequences. In reality, women do not just shrug off rape as if it has no significant meaning. Hence, to depict the crime without the consequences, as if the crime has no consequences, is the definition of normalising crime.
Hence, I have to ask Alan Moore's motivation for not showing the consequences of rape. We know that Alan Moore's depiction of sex is often done to buck the trends of comic books, but rape is not just sex. The context between them not at all the same. And by not dealing with rape respectfully, I have to consider that he's using it for shock value, which I not only find offensive but sad considering how intelligent Alan Moore clearly is.
Longshot
although not being able to speak as an authority on Alan Moore's depictions I will say that comics often use rape a little too freely. Although I'm sure there are times it has been used with purpose it is often used simply to say that the female character has been hurt badly and now has a darker side.
I say this and think to myself 'do you think, without it happening to yourself, you could truly depict how horiffic it must make you feel' and I know that a good writer should be able to do so, but I still doubt, even Alan Moore could do this.
I'm not saying that I don't think it should ever be used, or that the watchmen did a bad job of it, just that I don't think it ciould ever be done well enough on the printesd page, comic or book.
Raien
It's true that a comic book would need to spend a good deal of time detailing the trauma for it to make a sizeable impact, but some books, such as Watchmen and Mark Millar's Ultimates, have taken steps to show how affection for the abuser can create a vicious cycle in such relationships. There is psychology that deserves to be explored here, and aside from these two examples, rarely is.
Batmanuel
OK, so we have what could easily deteriorate into a heated debate, such subjects like rape are as emotive as they come, it is a violation which to all intents and purposes is not only distasteful in the extreme but also as heinous a crime as any sort of abuse be it sexual or just outright torture can get.
Be that as it may, i really don't care for it, i find reading about it and heaven forbid being subject to viewing it distasteful, its certinately not the reason why i read comics.
You can dress it up as a Graphic Novel if you like, you can print suggested for mature readers on it, but at the end of the day its still a comic.
However, having said that i remember the original Crow comic which depicted act of extreme violence, and it did add weight as to why a soul would be so angry that it would want top come back a reek revenge.
so lets not jump the gun and get blinded by just one small facet of this story, instead i will ask (Nicely of course) to wait until the book is released, and we have read it in context before we pass judgement.
i have no idea what an iconoclasts is as i rarely went to school and everything i need to know i have learnt from comics and television, but please lets not allow this thread to deteriorate beyond friendly banter and polite disagreement.
Reaper Wrote:
Quote:
I knew a guy once who didn't understand why women found rape to be so traumatic.... Couldn't understand how he had managed to have a steady relationship and children.
I suspect that should this indivdueal ever be subjected to torture, made to feel helpless during said torture, and defiled while being tortured, it may go some way to explaining the reallity of the crime.
Cosmic Hobo:
Quote:
and i dont wish to stop a debate on the subject but come on the claim that an artist as brilliant as Alan moore is "normalising" the crime is just irrational and provocative in the most gross way, both to Moore and gives a negitive perception of comics readership.
I am personally not a huge Alan Moore fan, (i was, but now im not) believing that he has produced his best work when he was younger, and now has become an overrated pompous prick who is far to clever for his own good. but hey, that's my opinion, and Light of thy Countenance pretty much sums it up.
Over and out
CatFang
I was trying to resist getting drawn into this but anyway...
Do I think AM has used rape for shock value?
Yes, absolutely.
However for the most parts comics is a somatic / visceral means of storytelling and many things are just used as casual shorthand to provoke a physical/emotional reaction.
Whether you persoanlly approve of that, or feel it is being used responsibly, is something else.
As to whether a writer shouldn't use something in his/her storytelling because they haven't/couldn't experienced have experienced it - you'd be chucking most fiction out with the bath water on that one.
Most things that happen in "lightweight" mainstream comics would leave the people involved seriously traumatised - not just rape.
And rape is not a "special crime" in anything other than a cultural sense, I think. Yes, it's horrendous. Is it more horrendous than other gross physical and emotional impositions by one or more humans on another?
There's my few pence, anyway.
The Watchman
Its very rare that I have to put my Moderator Hat on (possibly due to the fact that I can rarely remember my password for it, and that very few topics actually need to be moderated, well since the Iron Man topic died), but I feel that this topic has pretty much forced my hand.
I'm sorry, but I really don't think that we really need a topic discussing the finer points of including Rape in a story.
Is the act itself atrocious? Yes, of course it is.
I can think of half a dozen stories where its used, and it never fails to drive whatever point the writer is trying to put across home.
The Governor was a heinous human being, and his rape and torture of Michonne was terrible, but then again so was cutting off Ricks hand, and his public beheading of Tyresse, as well as dozens of other crimes being too many to name. The repercussions of the torture were dealt with, and I don't think it was used lightly.
Mr Hyde was an evil peice of work, (but that was clear from the original text) and his retribution of the Invisible man, for beating Mina Harker and betrayal of the human race was to beat and rape him to death. Deserved, I think.
I really don't want to go into it, but I'm going to say that I don't think that it is a subject that writers include in a story lightly.
Now, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to Lock this thread, becasue I feel that its just far to imflamatory.
